3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Molk

[VrabelJr]

Why? That's who he'd be replacing.

Drafting is not as simple as replacing player A with player B. That is incredibly shortsighted.

 

[manxman2601]

Drafting is not as simple as replacing player A with player B. That is incredibly shortsighted.

And yet it's an important measure in the Patriots scouting a player - who on the roster will he replace?

Almost every pro to amateur draftnik has Barron comfortably rated as a first round pick. He'd replace the weakest link on our defense (and be a considerable upgrade) and he's perfectly suited for the Pats in terms of character and coaching, was far better than Robert Lester at pass defense last year and was an all-american safety. What am I not seeing?

 

[VrabelJr]

Barron is the cream of a crop that was ripped apart by three hurricanes and the remains eaten up by cows that escaped.

edit: Take Markelle Martin in the third. Save the first you would have used on Barron for a DE or DT.

 

[Sciz]

And yet it's an important measure in the Patriots scouting a player - who on the roster will he replace?

Almost every pro to amateur draftnik has Barron comfortably rated as a first round pick. He'd replace the weakest link on our defense (and be a considerable upgrade) and he's perfectly suited for the Pats in terms of character and coaching, was far better than Robert Lester at pass defense last year and was an all-american safety. What am I not seeing?

Upside. The first round is where you take a pass rusher who runs a 4.55, not a safety who does.

 

[JerseyDevil26]

Travis Lewis? PASS. Wouldn't touch that guy.

 

[Joey007]

I'm not going to mock a draft, but here's a few guys I'm interested in (IF they're availble)
Pass Rushers
1st/2nd round- Whitney Mercilus, Donta' Hightower, and Andre Branch. Vinny Curry also somewhat intrigues me.

Corners/Safeties-
1st round-Alfonzo Denard, Stephen Gilmore, Mark Barron
2nd-Chase Minnifield, Leonard Johnson

WR-1st round- I was going to say Kendall Wright but his stock is rising so odds are we won't be able to go anywhere near him. Alshon Jeffrey (Iffy though, I heard he could become another Mike Williams) Mohamad Sanu
2nd round- Nick Toon, Marvin McNutt, and Joe Adams

 

[Belichicknumber1]

I'm not going to mock a draft, but here's a few guys I'm interested in (IF they're availble)
Pass Rushers
1st/2nd round- Whitney Mercilus, Donta' Hightower, and Andre Branch. Vinny Curry also somewhat intrigues me.

Corners/Safeties-
1st round-Alfonzo Denard, Stephen Gilmore, Mark Barron
2nd-Chase Minnifield, Leonard Johnson

WR-1st round- I was going to say Kendall Wright but his stock is rising so odds are we won't be able to go anywhere near him. Alshon Jeffrey (Iffy though, I heard he could become another Mike Williams) Mohamad Sanu
2nd round- Nick Toon, Marvin McNutt, and Joe Adams

Big Fan of Toon and i also like Streeter for wr's 2nd 3rd rounds. Harrison Smith for safety i would love. Mercilus and Jared Crick i would like to see first 2 picks

 

[manxman2601]

Upside. The first round is where you take a pass rusher who runs a 4.55, not a safety who does.

We've taken a lot of those have we? At the back end of the first, Patriots historically take players like Brandon Meriweather and Laurence Maroney. I'm going to respectfully suggest that Barron has better upside than either of them right now.

 

[Sciz]

We've taken a lot of those have we? At the back end of the first, Patriots historically take players like Brandon Meriweather and Laurence Maroney. I'm going to respectfully suggest that Barron has better upside than either of them right now.

I'm not denying that he's a safe pick. That's exactly what he is. But you don't draft "safe but flawed" in the first round. The first round is where you find your 10-year starters, not a guy who can start immediately due to lack of talent on the roster, but is ideally a backup at another position.

 

[manxman2601]

I'm not denying that he's a safe pick. That's exactly what he is. But you don't draft "safe but flawed" in the first round. The first round is where you find your 10-year starters, not a guy who can start immediately due to lack of talent on the roster, but is ideally a backup at another position.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I think Barron has the makings of a top NFL safety, the next step down from the likes of Reed and Berry. I don't see him whiff on pass defense like Lester and Kirkpatrick do, I see a player who makes great defensive plays almost purely on game intelligence and instinct. Short of the unreachables, I don't have anyone in the draft more perfect for the Pats. Barron won't be backing up anyone for the next ten years.

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but how many 'Bama games have you watched this year, particularly focused on Barron's play because I just don't see a player struggling in pass coverage the way you do. In fact, what I see is a player regularly bailing out Dre Kirkpatrick - I'm hoping he'll do the same for that other "high upside" first round pick, Devin McCourty.

 

[VrabelJr]

Barron isn't even the same type of safety as Reed and Berry. Those guys are field generals and ball hawks. Hell, Berry can run with WRs. Barron on the other hand is a SS with Pat Angerer's speed but less size.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

No point in drafting Mark Barron just because he's the best safety in a class of garbage safeties. Plus his skillset is almost identical to Chung's. There's four pretty good FA safeties available in Goldson, Branch, Nelson, and Griffin.

Of the 4 safeties you listed, 3 of them have skillsets nearly identical to Chung. Those three are Nelson, Griffin and Branch.

True, there is not a lot of talent at safety in this draft. However, overlooking guys like Iloka, Trumaine Johnson, Stephon Gilmore, etc, would be a mistake.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Barron isn't even the same type of safety as Reed and Berry. Those guys are field generals and ball hawks. Hell, Berry can run with WRs. Barron on the other hand is a SS with Pat Angerer's speed but less size.

Pat Angerer ran a 4.71 at the combine and a 4.64 at his Pro Day.

Barron is projected to run a 4.56, at worst. If he runs better than that, great.

Barron is listed by many draftniks as a Ballhawk and field general, contrary to your comments.

The big issue I see on Barron is that he fails to wrap up at times and misses open field tackles. That is more important for the left safety/right safety the Pats play.

 

[Sciz]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Pat Angerer ran a 4.71 at the combine and a 4.64 at his Pro Day.

Barron is projected to run a 4.56, at worst. If he runs better than that, great.

That's the thing. He can't run better than that. He won't be able to work out until after the draft. He's going to be drafted without being able to answer any questions about his speed.

I did some research, and the slowest safety to go in the first round in the last decade was Roy Williams. He ran a 4.53, and is as pure of a SS as it gets. Sean Taylor was the second slowest at 4.51, but he had just about everything else going for him. Everyone else in the first round broke 4.5. Since 2004, no safety has gone in the first round without running 4.48 or faster. Quite a few of the first round safeties have run in the 4.3s, including the last two (Berry and Thomas)

 

[manxman2601]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

That's the thing. He can't run better than that. He won't be able to work out until after the draft. He's going to be drafted without being able to answer any questions about his speed.

I did some research, and the slowest safety to go in the first round in the last decade was Roy Williams. He ran a 4.53, and is as pure of a SS as it gets. Sean Taylor was the second slowest at 4.51, but he had just about everything else going for him. Everyone else in the first round broke 4.5. Since 2004, no safety has gone in the first round without running 4.48 or faster. Quite a few of the first round safeties have run in the 4.3s, including the last two (Berry and Thomas)

Where are you getting your figures from?


Eric Berry ran a 4.47 at the combine. So a top five pick is 9/100's of a second faster than Barron


Other top safeties

Kam Chancellor - 4.69
Earl Thomas - 4.49
Nate Allen - 4.51
Patrick (ahem) Chung - 4.54

It's not as though Mark Barron is a lumbering beast out there by comparison. He is slower than some of the top safeties in the NFL by about the time it takes you to click your fingers. And that doesn't take into account Barron's instincts which allows him to jump the route anyway.

I take your point about Barron's measurables not being round one worthy and if we were picking in the top or middle of the first, I might agree with you. But we're not, we're picking either the worst of the first rounders or the best of the second rounders whichever way you want to look at it.

One final thought. Dashon Goldson who many want as a Patriots safety. Admittedly only a fourth round pick, ran a 4.60 at the combine. Of him, someone on this forum (with "It's a Tarp" in his sig ) said:

The only "top" guy I have any interest in is Dashon Goldson,

So what you are saying is that you'd rather have someone slower playing the position. Okay.

I'm just having a bit of fun with you there. More seriously, you've made it clear you don't like this class of safeties and that's absolutely fine. And I agree with you that we shouldn't just be drafting on need (although the Patriots largely do within parameters). But lets not kid ourselves that at the point we are picking there's a bunch of athletic freaks available to us. There are no "4.55" pass rushers or 4.3 6'4" WR's. The reason that Barron or Hightower are down at the bottom is they've got first round talent but are athletically limited. It's what we get left with for being one of the best teams in the league.

Okay, that post got way longer than expected.

 

[patsderoer]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Barron is listed by many draftniks as a Ballhawk and field general, contrary to your comments.

The big issue I see on Barron is that he fails to wrap up at times and misses open field tackles. That is more important for the left safety/right safety the Pats play.

Harrison Smith is better than this guy. Smith is a great open field tackler, he doesnt go for the highlight hit, he wraps up his target who then immediately falls to the ground.
Harrison Smith vs Stanford and Miami - YouTube
He's also a great pass rusher, vs Stanford he forced Luck to throw an INT just before hitting him.

 

[Defsoul]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Harrison Smith is better than this guy. Smith is a great open field tackler, he doesnt go for the highlight hit, he wraps up his target who then immediately falls to the ground.
Harrison Smith vs Stanford and Miami - YouTube
He's also a great pass rusher, vs Stanford he forced Luck to throw an INT just before hitting him.

I like him too. He looks really instinctiv and get's good jumps on balls. I remember Mike Mayock gushing over this kid during one of ND's home games last year. I bet he will be one of Mayock's binkies.

 

[Calciumee]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Why would you watch highlights?

Who doesn't like watching videos of Cox?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

Who doesn't like watching videos of Cox?

I have watched a ton of video on this kid, plus since we broadcast 2 Miss State games this year, I got those to view as well.

In my mind, Cox and Still project as a Ty Warren type. Yes both will need a little time before they can start, but by year two, you plug them in and leave them there for the next decade.

Ryes of Uconn and Crick of Nebraska (if healthy) are also decent options, but project more along the lines of Hamilton or Pleasant.

Now if you want a player that projects to be the next Seymour, you have to trade up and go get Brockers. This guy projects as the real deal in the 4-3 or the 3-4.

 

[VrabelJr]

Re: 3-Round Mock (YDKF): Fletcher Cox, Alfonzo Dennard, Joe Adams, Travis Lewis, D Mo

I think Devon Still is able to generate a lot more pressure than Ty Warren ever did.