Welcome to PatsFans.com

3-4 DE Michael Brockers

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Ochmed Jones, Mar 24, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,727
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +5 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    Time to revisit Brockers, especially since New England is one of the teams he is visiting in the weeks to come. We know he has the length and the weight to strive as a 3-4 DE.

    On his pro day, he got his time down into the 5.1 range.

    At the combine he only did 19 reps.

    His film from last season, especially in the BCS championship game, is amazing.

    I think there is good reason to believe he is slipping on some draft board.

    No doubt in my mind, that he needs a red shirt year in our defense, but at the same time after the red shirt year, if he develops under the watchful eye of Pepper, he could be the next Seymour in our defense.

    Is he worth trading up to go get? How much do we trade?

    In my mind if we can trade #31 and #48 to move up to #15, to take him,that would still leave us #27 for ILB/OLB Hightower, #63 for FS Martin, the third rounder for OT Potter and the fourth rounder for OLB Bequette, maybe.
  2. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,488
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +37 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #91 Jersey
    Not a bad thought OJ, IF he falls to the Pats at one of their first round picks. He MIGHT be worth the risk if he falls to us, but you'd never risk trading UP for a guy who is just as likely to end up being Jonathan Sullivan as Richard Seymour. This is especially true for a guy who you admit yourself could use a red shirt year. If you are trading up in the first round, you want a starter.
  3. Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

    Merril Hoge's Tie Knot Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I thought he didn't bench at combine?
  4. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Has a very high ceiling, and exactly the frame that BB would want at 3-4 DE. The question will be whether he has the work ethic to reach his potential. If he doesn't have the heart for the work, and isn't coachable, he'll be a huge disappointment to some team that could have had Fletcher Cox or Devin Still instead.

    If he's got the mind for it, trading into the low teens would be great value for a player that would eventually replace Wilfork as the star of the DL. Anything less than that, we may as well wait-see. I would trade into the low 20s for Cox, or sit still at 27 for Still.
  5. NePatriots

    NePatriots PatsFans.com Draftnik PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Brockers can contribute on run downs as a rookie. He is a big-time work in progress rushing the passer.

    His frame is unreal. If you're drafting measurables, he is a no-brainer.
  6. NePatriots

    NePatriots PatsFans.com Draftnik PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    His right shoulder was bothering him. He did not lift.
  7. SlotGuy

    SlotGuy Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2012
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Could Brockers be the guy the Pats are rumored to love in the top 10?
  8. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    8,341
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I hope not. He's not worth a top-10 pick. Fletcher Cox, OTOH...
  9. everlong

    everlong Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,690
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    I'm wondering if his slower times will scare the 4-3 teams off and maybe some of the one gap 3-4 teams. KC although end isn't a need could take him and then there's that run of teams in the middle of the round with AZ, Dallas, Philly and the Jets. I find it hard to believe he makes it by this grouping but if he does he might make it all the way to the 22-23 range and we could trade up in front of the Steelers much cheaper.

    Honestly I think the Eagles are going to take him. I know they're a 4-3 team but that's a Reid type of pick. That's provided Keuchly is off the board and I think Seattle will take him.

    I'm hoping Cox makes it to the early 20's and they trade up. I think Brockers will be far more stout against the run but I believe Cox has a far greater upside for rushing the passer.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2012
  10. UK_Pat37

    UK_Pat37 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Don';t set any store by Pro Day 40s. They're run on an athletics track more often than not and indoors. They always improve on their combine results. Heck, I think Alshon Jeffery deliberate;y put off his 40, despite being healthy, so it didn't make him look bad at the combine.

    Brockers is horribly raw. #27 might be a good spot but top 10? No thanks. LSU D Line prospects have a habit of busting at the pro level;...he's going to be the next big one.
  11. stinkypete

    stinkypete Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'm not sure Belichick values the 5 technique as must as he did a decade ago. The game was different back when he was drafting guys like Warren high in the 1st round, when stout run defenses were championship defenses. Now, it's all about stopping the pass. A 5 technique is only a part time player in today's Belichick defense.

    Now, If Belichick views Brockers as a Seymour-esque interior rush monster, my opinion changes, but most scouting reports see him as more of a 5 tech.
  12. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    .... isn't worth a top 10 pick, either
  13. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Confused what you mean. Seymour played 5-technique for us, too.
  14. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    8,165
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +46 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    Would much rather have Devon Still - at least there's some production there.
  15. mrscruff

    mrscruff PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    747
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I personally don't believe all four of Cox, Poe, Still and Brockers will make it to pick 27. If the last of these makes it to the 22-24 range I would make a minor trade-up to snag whoever is the last of four ... unless you like Reyes better in the early second that is!
  16. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    8,165
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +46 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    The one question though is how does BB feel about these 5-techs now? Last year we passed on three supposed ideal ones in Cam Jordan, Heyward and Muhammed Wilkerson. Was that simply the lockout dictating that or has BB's priorities changed? The "need" has been there the last two years and BB hasn't addressed it. Is this year likely to be any different?
  17. patsderoer

    patsderoer Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Still and his 50% motor? No thanks. He was absolutely owned by the Wisconsin OLiners, pushed back and taken out of play 1on1 numerous times vs average college OLs from Illinois.

    Poe? Watch him get blocked 1on1 by a RB around 1:27 in this video Dontari Poe - YouTube A competent DT would've run all over that RB. Another guy with a very questionable motor.
    Opposing line coach on Dontari Poe: “He took plays off” | ProFootballTalk
    Poe can run fast at 350, under 5sec 40 but then again, so did this 350 guy. Brandon Keith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia He is now a FA and Arizona are not rushing to get him back.
  18. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,727
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +5 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    I have to agree with you on thinking the 4 DT's will be off the board by #27. A lot of draftniks have Reyes climbing into the bottom of the first round.

    However I put Reyes in the same category as Barron. Second round grade, that could move up based on need.

    If Carolina takes Cox at #9 it could start a mini run on the DT position.

    Ideally Brockers would be available at #15 and I think Philly would jump at the chance for #31 and #48 for #15.

    Seems like we've had Andy Reid programmed in #1 on the war room phone speed dial for the past decade. (Ha! Ha!)
  19. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    8,341
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Prob. true, but he is still more worthy of a trade-up (late teens/early 20s?) than Brockers is.
  20. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    8,341
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Excellent question.
  21. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    There are multiple "needs" every year so I won't disqualify a position based on what they did last year. In regards to the 3 you mention:

    Cam Jordan weighed in at 287 lbs and wasn't available during our 2nd 1st.

    Wilkerson was seen as a project.

    Heyward is the only 1 of these 3 I see as ideal.

    I guess they just liked Dowling more and viewed CB as a position of equal need. It is possible they got too cute and thought 1 of Wilkerson or Heyward would be there at 33.

    I believe Poe and Brockers are both projects who would require a trade up. This combination takes them both out of consideration.

    Cox will require a trade up although I view him as a day 1 starter and a better prospect than Jordan, Heyward or Wilkerson.

    Still seems similar to Heyward to me. Not sure why we take him and not Heyward except for a different grade on the other players and different teams needs.
  22. manxman2601

    manxman2601 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    8,165
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +46 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    Nice reply, thank you. My only thought on this is that the 5-tech is a very important position for the Pats and yet we ranked a CB higher at the time? Especially as it was a position we'd dipped into regularly in previous drafts. My thought on this might be that in fact, contrary to popular belief, BB doesn't rate the 5-tech as all that important a position unless there is genuine Seymour like talent there and is happy filling it with the Loves, Deadericks et al. This year will be a good test. If Brockers or Still fall within reasonable range and he doesn't trade up, or he passes on Reyes, I think we can assume that the 5-tech is not an important player for his system as we thought.
  23. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    5,279
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    If a 5 tech is not drafted then I will have to agree that it is just not that important and he has true faith in the guys he brings in.
  24. Merril Hoge's Tie Knot

    Merril Hoge's Tie Knot Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    What? I'm the opposite. I see Barron as a top 20 player that might only be available to us because of surgery, and Reyes as a late second round one gap player.

    I haven't watched anything on Reyes for a long time, maybe I missed something. I don't have any UCONN games on DVD. I guess I'm off to watch the senior bowl for the 500th time.
  25. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,706
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +9 / 2 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    Over the past few days I've gone back and watched the top 4 DT's to see who fits this system the best. To me, Cox is clearly the top DL in this class. He's got a good combination of athleticism, skill set and production, and should be a top 10 pick. Dontari Poe is probably the most athletic of the DL, but he is also the most overrated. I think he is a fringe 1st round pick, but will likely be selected in the top 15. Devon Still arguably has the biggest upside and he has flashed elite skills as a 4-3 DT. But he is also very inconsistent, similar to Cameron Heyward last year. Brockers is the most raw as a pass rusher, but I think he is by far the best fit for this system. He not only has elite measurables, but his skill set fits perfectly as a two-gap 5-tech DE. He plays the run well, uses good leverage, anchors well and can hold up against double teams. He's not a 3 down DL early in his career, but I think he can start on early downs from day 1 and develop into a well rounded DE for this team.

    Earlier in the off season I thought he was overrated and wasn't impressed with him at the combine. He looked overweight and I wasn't impressed with his athleticism. On tape however I think he looked very good, and he apparently slimmed down for his pro day and improved his athletic numbers. I think one positive for the Pats is he doesn't fit a lot of defensive schemes, which could cause him to drop. I don't think he is a great fit for a 4-3 because he doesn't offer a lot as a pass rusher as yet. And despite what Charley Casserly may think, he isn't a 3-4 NT and he isn't a great fit for more aggressive 3-4 defenses. Because of this I think he could fall into the 20's, where I wouldn't mind a trade up. In my next mock I have him dropping into the 20's and the Pats moving up from 31 with Cleveland at 22 to take him.


    I've got to agree with Ochmed here. I think Barron is a fringe 1st round player who is being pushed up because of an extremely weak safety class. If he is there at 31 I would take him, but I think he is going to be overdrafted by someone like the Jets who still have a huge need at safety. I could even see the Eagles taking a shot at him, which I think would be a huge reach.
  26. doesntmatter1

    doesntmatter1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    My favorite de in order are fletcher cox, billy winn, and jerel worthy. I've never been a fan of still and for some reason I have never been high on brockers. As for poe, I watch a crapload of college ball and don't recall seeing a single game of his so I have no idea what he's about.
  27. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,498
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +7 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #3 Jersey
    [​IMG]
  28. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,498
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +7 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #3 Jersey
    Very discerning, Sir. [​IMG]

    It's part of something I've given a great deal of thought to, of late...

    For those of us who're convinced that "34" is the way we're headed back to ~ at least as our alleged "Base" Defense ~ one can't help but wonder about how WANTONLY Mad Bill slung Richard Seymour to the Wind, how EASILY he cut Warren loose, how FANATICALLY he's REFUSED to draft "34" Flankers ~ OLB's, to your Earthlings!! ~ and, indeed, how CASUALLY he's ignored our lack of FirePower at "34" End AND "34" Flanker in the Draft, ere these last few years. [​IMG]

    Looking at our roster, it seems clear to me ~ despite the way we finished the year ~ that he's EMPHATICALLY favoring the "43"...and assorted Derivatives.
  29. SeymourTrophies

    SeymourTrophies Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Interesting, sir. :idea2:

    There's too much unknown because of the lockout and unusual offseason last year to be sure of anything. Big Sey and Ty were gone no matter what IMO, and we have replaced them with lesser big uglies. Carter and Anderson may have been anomalies, but BB re-learned the wonders of the specialist this year. I have to think no matter what base he uses, there will be a pass rusher brought in, and there will be a do-it-all project brought in.

    The way things are, we are poised to go either way with the DL, but I maintain that a duo of Spikes-Mayo behind big Vince should make him lean 3-4.
  30. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    5,727
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +5 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    Well there is no doubt in my mind that BB likes having players that are flexible enough to play either the 3-4 or the 4-3.

    It seems to me that the front we play, should be predicated to some degree on the strength of the LBers. And to the end, our LBer's scream 4-3. But ever since Willie and Vrabel left, they have screamed 4-3, yet for years BB played 3-4 with miscast veteran LBers.

    But maybe instead of looking at it as 3-4 vs. 4-3, maybe we should ask is if BB is collecting guys that can play both 1 gap and 2 gap defense? Because it seems to me these guys offer him the most scheme versatility.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page