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2011 trade down from #28... how does it look?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by rookBoston, May 3, 2012.

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  1. rookBoston

    rookBoston 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Does anyone feel any remorse over the trade down, last year, from #28? With the pick, the Saints drafted Mark Ingram. The trade netted us Vereen (2011) who will be competing for the starting job this year, and the #27 pick. 27 plus our third rounder (Cinci used it on DT Brandon Thompson) turned into Chandler Jones.

    So, the full value of the series of trades is in, now:

    Mark Ingram + Brandon Thompson... in exchange for... Shane Vereen + Chandler Jones

    - Ingram may/may not be a better RB than Vereen. We'll know by the end of this season.
    - Thompson was one that would be a solid fit as a 3-4 DE for the Pats-- competition for Ron Brace.
    - Jones sounds like a rare prospect at DE/OLB.

    With the full benefit of hindsight, which side of this trade would you take, today?
     
  2. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    I loved watching Vereen at Cal, so I'm probably higher on him than most. He had hamstring issues last year, but I think he could come in and surprise a lot of people this season. In any case, none of these guys has really proven anything, but of the four players I think that Jones is by far the best prospect, so I'm a fan of it.
     
  3. Kicking_Game

    Kicking_Game Rookie

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    Like the trade in hindsight, but didn't like it at the time. I wanted them to draft Cameron Heyward like Pitt did, and trade #33 instead.

    Vereen is almost a complete unknown, and I find it strange (despite hamstring issues) that he had so little playing time. Would Torry Smith have been a better pick there? I think so (with hindsight).

    But getting Chandler Jones seems to make up for this. Looks like a tremendous prospect. Vereen panning out will be gravy.

    Good trade, and bet New Orleans would take it back if they could.
     
  4. brady199

    brady199 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Could they of used last years pick to draft a much needed defender, that maybe could of made a play in the SB when it counted?

    We'll never know.

    It is what it is.

    Hope Vereen stays out of the Tub and the future looks bright for Jones.
     
  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm always a sucker for tracking trade paths! But I can't imagine the Patriots would have been interested in Ingram at #28 -- in fact, Ivan Fears even said as much. So I'm not sure that's the right way to do this particular comparison.

    Personally, I liked the trade fine then and I still have no reason to complain.
     
  6. rookBoston

    rookBoston 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Instead of Ingram, we could have drafted Muhammad Wilkerson at #28, or Cameron Hayward. Would either of them have been the difference maker in the Superbowl? Going into 2012, I would rather take the bet on Chandler Jones than either of them. My impression is that the ceiling on Jones is much higher.
     
  7. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I loved the Vereen pick - he was my favorite RB prospect for the Pats in the 2011 draft, and still I think he will be a stud for us; I wasn't high on Ingram as a fit for us at all - but Cam Jordan was my binky for 2011. I wasn't upset when we took Nate Solder at 17, because getting a potential franchise LT at that position had more value. But when Jordan slipped past 20 I was hoping that the Pats would trade UP from 28 to get both Jordan and Solder. I thought that Jordan was a versatile weapon who had the size and length (6'4" 287#) and athleticism to play 4-3 DE, 3-4 DE, move inside to 4-3 DT at times, and play the elephant. I would have given up a 3rd or 4th round pick to trade up from 28 to the 21-24 range to take Jordan. So I was a bit disappointed when he didn't do that, though I was happy with the Vereen pick, and even though that kind of trade up probably would have cost us a 3rd round pick.

    In retrospect, by trading back we got Vereen, kept all of our 3rd round picks, and then traded up this year to get Chandler Jones, who like Cam Jordan in 2011 is a versatile weapon with the size and length (6' 5 1/2" 266#, but with the frame to add 15-20 lbs.) and athleticism to play 4-3 DE, occasionally 3-4 DE or move inside to DT on passing downs, and lay the elephant. Jordan probably had a higher floor than Jones, but Jones probably has a higher ceiling. So all things considered, I'm pretty happy with that trade.

     
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I absolutely would, as disappointing as Vereen's injury plagued rookie year was there's still plenty of hope for him and I love Jones. More importantly I have no doubt Belichick would - whether we think Thompson would be a good 3-4 DE for us or not, Belichick couldn't have been too high on him taking Bequette two picks ahead of him. We didn't take any DL like Thompson yet we still passed on him late in the third.
     
  9. Gronkandez

    Gronkandez 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    As others have said, instead of using Ingram/Thompson in the comparison, it would be better to use BPA, or at least the player most likely to be picked by the Patriots. Maybe that extra pick puts us over the top in last year's Superbowl. At the time I was thinking Jabal Sheard at either 28 or 33. Plus it's not an apples-to-apples comparison because having a player for an extra is always more valuable.
     
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wilkerson's a player, or he was as a rookie. Time will tell for sure, but the Patriots certainly could have used Wilkerson last year.
     
  11. Teapot

    Teapot On the Game Day Roster

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    I didnt ever remember Vereen, IDK why . I hope its the second round effect, Darius Butler, Chad Jackson, Vereen, Tavon Wilson...

    In my mind there's no second round draft in NFL. I am more happy in that way :p
     
  12. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think Wilkerson's the fairest thought experiment, given that he was the most often mocked player on this forum. At #93 this year it probably would have been CB Boykin or Brooks. So let's call it for the moment:

    Wilkerson + Boykin vs. Jones + Vereen

    I think one key in weighing that is that Wilkerson was a hot choice here because fans were looking for a 5-tech. Similarly, Kendall Reyes was the hot pick at 48 this year because fans were looking for a 5-tech. But since the Pats traded Seymour, they shown no inclination to restock with 5-techs. If they're not building around that style of defensive front, that affects Wilkerson's value.

    Would another first-round defender have been useful last year? Well sure, that's a given. What team in the league couldn't make use of another first rounder? But would you rather have Wilkerson or Jones this year and in the years to come?
     
  13. Deus Irae

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    It's tough to say moving forward but, one thing we can say is that Wilkerson might have been the difference between a SB win and the loss this past season, while Vereen and the pick this year certainly weren't any help.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  14. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course, but you're comparing a year of a player to a year of no player. To even out that equation you'll have to wait until the last year of Jones's contract and ask what difference Jones vs. nobody makes to the team then.
     
  15. Deus Irae

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    The Patriots can/could always re-sign the draft pick they didn't make. That year gone is part of the opportunity cost that went into the deal. Had Vereen been worth anything, it wouldn't be an issue, but he gave the team essentially nothing. That means that not making the trade, and taking Wilkerson, would have given the no-trade side an extra year of football that can never be gotten back.
     
  16. Crazy Patriot Guy

    Crazy Patriot Guy Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I just remember Mel Kiper instantly harping after the Vereen pick that his career would always be compared to Ingram's since the Pats passed on him to take Vereen later. My first thought was obviously: "Ummmmm......shouldn't we wait until we see who the Pats get with that 2012 1st rounder? Doesn't his career count too?"

    As for the trade, there's no doubt we could have gotten a solid player had we kept the pick. As some have said already though, I think Chandler Jones has more upside then anyone we could have gotten last season, though in fairness probably has more bust potential too.

    I'm happy with the trade and I'm happy with who we got. Nothing proven yet but lots of potential going forward.
     
  17. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa In the Starting Line-Up

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    You're the only person on earth who's ever said that. That's crazy talk. He wouldn't have made a damn difference in that game. He's going to be a good player going forward. But, he wasn't going to give us any more than we got out of Brandon Deaderick in that game.
     
  18. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're surprised that Kiper doesn't have the foresight to look past the right now? :eek:;)
     
  19. Deus Irae

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    You have no idea, at all, what he would have been able to do, and neither do I. He was good enough to be a positive impact kind of player as a rookie, though.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  20. jsull87

    jsull87 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Deus there is no way you can be proven right or wrong as to if Wilkerson woudl have made a difference in that game (i think your just stiring a bit here). But I do agree the comparison shouldn't be to Ingram it should be to Player X who we may have taken (maybe we would have taken Ras-I at 28?) versus Vereen and Jones (you can throw in the draft pick if you wish).
     
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