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2011 Offseason Outlook - Linebacker


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TBC didn't quit on the team, the team just didn't give him enough 3rd and long opportunities to do his thing.

You give him WAY to much credit. TBC is a one trick pony, and unfortunatly he's not that good at that trick.

I went into the season with an open mind for Tully, but what I see when I watch him is a guy with little to no instincts, terrible run containment, and just overall big play disappointment.

Remember in the Colts game when Tully came around right end and had a clear shot at Manning, only to see Tully whiff on the sack? Thats Banta-Cain in a nutshell. Don't get me wrong, if you need a sack in a loop-sided, meaningless game against the Bills, Tully's your man! But overall he needs to be upgraded.
 
Definitely need at least one olb, and wouldn't mind seeing two de's drafted. Ol needs some serious addressing and from there it is all gravy. For those that say center is not a priority...i say watch how badly koppen was abused in our last two playoff losses. This needs an upgrade immediately, especially with the premier defenses we see regularly (pitt, jests, baltimore will be trouble next year if oline isn't addressed). The defense will improve next year with the youngins more experienced, I'd use a few picks early on the front seven, throw in one on the secondary, two on oline and then a tall (preferably, 6 foot minimum) burner at wr to round off our first six picks. Then a flyer on a rb or two and what else is needed? Te, set. This team will be scary in the next few years...dare I say they will be able to afford ny style move ups on draft day? The roster is loaded with talent and they seem to play well as a team. Just a few missing pieces and some problems in the trenches that would be addressed this year...
 
TBC didn't quit on the team, the team just didn't give him enough 3rd and long opportunities to do his thing.
I'd disagree with that. TBC was out there on 3rd down a lot early in the season, but he regressed big time from 2009. We can only speculate why.

Maybe he's satisfied with his contract. Maybe he has an injury issue. Maybe he's just getting older. Either way, his production really dropped. I don't remember him making any big plays in 2010 like he did in 2009.
 
I'd disagree with that. TBC was out there on 3rd down a lot early in the season, but he regressed big time from 2009. We can only speculate why.

Maybe he's satisfied with his contract. Maybe he has an injury issue. Maybe he's just getting older. Either way, his production really dropped. I don't remember him making any big plays in 2010 like he did in 2009.

He was coming off of his career best season. His decline in production was to be expected.
 
You give him WAY to much credit. TBC is a one trick pony, and unfortunatly he's not that good at that trick.

There's a lot more truth to that than complaints that he quit on the team. I think he's just not as good of a pass rusher as some people here seemed to expect him to be. When someone has a career year at age 29, it's not totally fair to expect them to maintain that level of play.
 
Many folks thought that in 2009 Banta-Cain was a top linebacker and that he failed in 2010. I have a different view.

I beleive that Banta-Cain was, is, and always shall be a decent situation pass-rusher, a top special teamer and a decent backup OLB who can play as much as needed at a reasonable (but not top) level.
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I think that a role player like Banta-Cain is highly valued by Belichick, as he should be. He is a fine #3 or #4 OLB. He should not be fired for not being what he is not.

IT IS NOT Tully's fault that Belichick has not have top quality #1's and #2's as he used to have with McGinest and Vrabel.
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We have needed two starting OLB's for two years. We now have Cunningham who will take one of the positions. We need a second. Then, we will be FINE with Ninkovich, Banta-Cain and Eric Moore as the #3, #4 and #5 OLB's.
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BOTTOM LINE

The problem is lack of quality starters. We should not be wanting to fire the backups because they are not qualified to be top level starters. We will better in 2011. Cunningham will play a full year, a hopefully a rookie will contribute some, and Moore will play a full year.
 
He was coming off of his career best season. His decline in production was to be expected.

Come on now...his best season?...decline is expected?

Out of his 10 sacks in 2009, 5 of them were against the lowly Bills who had one of the very worst OLs in the NFL

Banta Cain would probably be more successful as a rapper than he is a Linebacker....he is a guy who can be on the lower end depth chart and only moved up with injury issues but not much else to offer.
 
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Come on now...his best season?...decline is expected?

Out of his 10 sacks in 2009, 5 of them were against the lowly Bills who had one of the very worst OLs in the NFL

Banta Cain would probably be more successful as a rapper than he is a Linebacker....time to let him go

Yes, best season.... decline expected.


Pretty obvious really. It was talked about in the offseason.

You're welcome to ignore it, anyway, in favor of whatever scenario you prefer.
 
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Yes, best season.... decline expected.


Pretty obvious really. You're welcome to ignore it.

Banta Cain is a JAG LB and about 4th up on the depth chart,nothing more
 
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Come on now...his best season?...decline is expected?

Out of his 10 sacks in 2009, 5 of them were against the lowly Bills who had one of the very worst OLs in the NFL

Banta Cain would probably be more successful as a rapper than he is a Linebacker....he is a guy who can be on the lower end depth chart and only moved up with injury issues but not much else to offer.

Better rapper? How? I don't get it...
 
Banta Cain is a JAG LB and about 4th up on the depth chart,nothing more

Again, he was an established player coming off of his career year. It was expected that he'd decline, at least by some of us. Given that I've called him a backup, I don't have any issue with your claim. On the other hand "time to let him go" is not the same as "guy's a JAG backup".
 
TBC is under contract for $3.7M for 2011. Considering Eric Moore replaced him late in the season says more about TBC than it does Moore, imo. TBC's time has come and gone.

Aldon Smith looks great to me .
 
At some point in time we all need to come to an agreement on the definition of JAG. People throw that word around all the time without any reference to how they are defining it.
 
Bill Belichick May Break From Tradition to Fill Need by Drafting Pass-Rushing Outside Linebacker - NESN.com - Jeff Howe

Hot Topic: The Patriots had a good rotation going among their linebackers, and that kept them fresh and allowed them to present offenses with different looks. However, they sometimes got into trouble with the inside linebacker alongside Mayo. Spikes emerged as the team's essential starter before his four-game suspension, and Guyton subbed in on passing downs because he was a superior player in coverage.

Spikes will need to improve his read and recognition in order to become an every-down player, and it looked like Jets wide receiver Jerricho Cotchery broke through Spikes' zone on the backbreaking 58-yard reception in the fourth quarter of their playoff meeting. At the very least, Spikes will always be a dominant run stopper, but if he can reach his potential and become an every-down player, it would ensure the Patriots are loaded at inside linebacker for years to come.


Offseason Question: All together now, will the Patriots try to add a pass-rushing outside linebacker?

The Patriots haven't really had a wrecking ball at outside linebacker since Bill Belichick took over in 2000, and while a pass-rushing force would be an asset, you've got to wonder if Belichick truly cares for one. Only two Patriots have reached double digits in sacks during Belichick's 11 seasons -- Vrabel (12.5 sacks) in 2007 and Banta-Cain (10 sacks) in 2009 -- and there have only been 11 occasions when a player has reached at least seven sacks. Of those 11 occasions, Vrabel (twice), Rosevelt Colvin (twice), Banta-Cain and Willie McGinest were the only outside linebackers. Break it down even more, and Belichick has only had four outside linebackers who have achieved seven-sack seasons in New England.

Does this mean Belichick is completely averse to adding a pass-rushing force? No, but if the trend is any indication, Belichick has higher priorities elsewhere. The Patriots have fewer needs this offseason than they've had in the past few, so maybe that will push Belichick toward drafting a pass-rushing outside linebacker in April.

I certainly hope Howe is wrong in his prognosis. I really don't see how a pass rushing OLB in today's NFL is not a vital need of improvement for this team.
 
I'm not a fan of TBC. The previous poster said they thought he just had an off year this year, the way I see it he just had one standout season last year (and even then I think people get blinded by the stats, he may have had double digit sacks but half of those came in one game against a hapless Bills O-Line). My personal pick for a replacement would be Ryan Kerrigan, he doesn't have the speed of a 'typical' 3-4 OLB but BB doesn't use a typical 3-4 and Kerrigan makes up for a lack of speed with size that would fit him perfectly in the mold of a Patriots OLB and allow him to set the edge against the run as well as rush the passer

Come on now...his best season?...decline is expected?

Out of his 10 sacks in 2009, 5 of them were against the lowly Bills who had one of the very worst OLs in the NFL

Banta Cain would probably be more successful as a rapper than he is a Linebacker....he is a guy who can be on the lower end depth chart and only moved up with injury issues but not much else to offer.

I think there's a role for Tully on our defense. He isn't a true double-digit sack guy, but he has been able to get pretty good pressure on the QB in clear passing situations.

Even if we discredit his 5 sacks against the Bills due to their poor OL (though let's not forget their importance considering we won both games by a combined 8 points), that still means he recorded at least 5 sacks in his past 3 seasons with us. He's not Vrabel or McGinest, but for a role player, that's not bad either.

I also think offenses were more aware of him this year. Either way, our defense generated more total sacks than last year. He dropped from 10 sacks to 5, but our defense jumped from 31 to 36 total sacks. His percentage of total sacks fell significantly, but overall the defense was able to get to the QB more.

I wish we didn't pay as much as we did. But I do think he has a place on this team. It's just not as a starter.
 
I think there's a role for Tully on our defense. He isn't a true double-digit sack guy, but he has been able to get pretty good pressure on the QB in clear passing situations.

Even if we discredit his 5 sacks against the Bills due to their poor OL (though let's not forget their importance considering we won both games by a combined 8 points), that still means he recorded at least 5 sacks in his past 3 seasons with us. He's not Vrabel or McGinest, but for a role player, that's not bad either.

I also think offenses were more aware of him this year. Either way, our defense generated more total sacks than last year. He dropped from 10 sacks to 5, but our defense jumped from 31 to 36 total sacks. His percentage of total sacks fell significantly, but overall the defense was able to get to the QB more.

I wish we didn't pay as much as we did. But I do think he has a place on this team. It's just not as a starter.

I have to completely disagree with you on this point. First, they payed him good money, and he then lost his job. He passes no eye ball test from me. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've watched him spin move himself out of a play.

My opinion is they cut Tully, take the cap hit, and roll with Cunningham, Ninko, and either another body picked up in free agency, or maybe look to keep Eric Moore on board. The I'd like to see the Patriots add 2 more players via the draft to this position. I think this is a good year for it too, I see alot of good prospects with the measurables the Patriots prefer.
 
I have to completely disagree with you on this point. First, they payed him good money, and he then lost his job. He passes no eye ball test from me. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've watched him spin move himself out of a play.

My opinion is they cut Tully, take the cap hit, and roll with Cunningham, Ninko, and either another body picked up in free agency, or maybe look to keep Eric Moore on board. The I'd like to see the Patriots add 2 more players via the draft to this position. I think this is a good year for it too, I see alot of good prospects with the measurables the Patriots prefer.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut him considering his base salary jumps from $800K to $2.3M next year. If they think Moore or a rookie can replace him, then they should do it.

But I don't understand the "lost his job" thing. He was a 3rd down rusher last season. This year, they asked him to start at OLB at the beginning of the season and eventually someone took that over, but he still had the 3rd down responsibilities.

And I don't like always giving up on a guy after a bad game/year. It's like selling a stock when it's low. Seemed like half the board wanted to bench Gronk for the rest of the season after the Cleveland game. But the key thing here is whether Tully had a bad year, or whether his skills are declining. If it's the former, I'm all for giving him another chance. If it's the latter, we need to cut him.
 
We seem to usually carry FIVE OLB's, not four.

Currently we have Banta-Cain, Cunningham, Ninkovich, Moore and Murrell

In any case, the open question is whether Belichick will have one or two new faces on the 2011 roster.
 
A lot of people seem to think we're set at ILB, but I actually think this position can be upgraded quite a bit.

Spikes is a real question mark at this point - being out of shape after the suspension, not playing well in the playoff game, his overall judgment with the sex tape and all the other stuff I mentioned. He's also flat out a liability in coverage and 1 poor judgment from being suspended for a full year. Guyton is just not a full time LB.

The guys I'd love to see us get is David Harris. He's a 3 down player, excelled in Mangini's system, and has managed to keep his mouth shut in that loudmouth locker room. Only thing is - I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets franchise him, as he's the best player in their front 7.
 
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