2004 team would have beaten 2007 any day of the week

[PATSYLICIOUS]

No it wasn't.

2004 Colts were the 5th highest scoring offense in the super bowl era. Manning set the all time TD record for a single season until Brady broke it. Not sure why that's so confusing to say they're one of the best offenses.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

2004 Colts were the 5th highest scoring offense in the super bowl era. Manning set the all time TD record for a single season until Brady broke it. Not sure why that's so confusing to say they're one of the best offenses.

The comment is in reference to your SD/ Heinz field section of the post.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The comment is in reference to your SD/ Heinz field section of the post.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Unless you're the Indianapolis Colts, beating San Diego and/or Norv Turner in the playoffs has never been a monumental task.

 

[ivanvamp]

Nobody knows for sure, of course, but I did play an all-time Patriots tournament on whatifsports.com. Here's the thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ever-my-whatifsports-com-pats-tournament.html

FWIW, the 2004 Patriots won that tournament. They were the #1 seed (the '07 Pats were the #2 seed), and here's the '04 team's path to the championship:

Round 1: #1 '04 - bye
Round 2: #1 '04 beat #9 '96, 21-16
Semifinals: #1 '04 beat #12 '86, 30-0
Championship: #1 '04 beat #2 '07, 24-12

Corey Dillon was the championship game MVP, as he had 21 carries for 127 yds and 2 td, and added 2 rec for 26 yds as well.

There. whatifsports.com has spoken.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Nobody knows for sure, of course, but I did play an all-time Patriots tournament on whatifsports.com. Here's the thread:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ever-my-whatifsports-com-pats-tournament.html

FWIW, the 2004 Patriots won that tournament. They were the #1 seed (the '07 Pats were the #2 seed), and here's the '04 team's path to the championship:

Round 1: #1 '04 - bye
Round 2: #1 '04 beat #9 '96, 21-16
Semifinals: #1 '04 beat #12 '86, 30-0
Championship: #1 '04 beat #2 '07, 24-12

Corey Dillon was the championship game MVP, as he had 21 carries for 127 yds and 2 td, and added 2 rec for 26 yds as well.

There. whatifsports.com has spoken.

That is a cool site. How many times was Eason sacked?

 

[ivanvamp]

That is a cool site. How many times was Eason sacked?

Ha, I don't remember. But in a 30-0 game, it was probably more than a few. I can still picture so clearly in my mind him just turtling in the Super Bowl under the enormous pressure of the Bears' rush. Grogan got killed in that game but at least he hung in there in the face of that terrorizing assault.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ha, I don't remember. But in a 30-0 game, it was probably more than a few. I can still picture so clearly in my mind him just turtling in the Super Bowl under the enormous pressure of the Bears' rush. Grogan got killed in that game but at least he hung in there in the face of that terrorizing assault.

Montana or Brady at their apex were not having good games vs that Bears defense on that day.

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

Yeah

Moss/Welker/Stallworth//Gaffney vs Randall Gay and Earthwind Moreland.....

LOL

This is an even bigger idiot thread than the Welker compilations.

Want to know why the 04 Pats were so good even with that secondary? Here's why: Big Sey (before he got paid), Ty Waren, Keith Traylor/Vince Wilfork, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, and Rosevelt Colvin, Jarvis Green, and Roman Phifer coming off the bench.

The 07 o-line was humiliated by the Giants d-line. Not sure if they would have fared much better against the 04 Pats front 7.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Want to know why the 04 Pats were so good even with that secondary? Here's why: Big Sey (before he got paid), Ty Waren, Keith Traylor/Vince Wilfork, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, and Rosevelt Colvin, Jarvis Green, and Roman Phifer coming off the bench.

The 07 o-line was humiliated by the Giants d-line. Not sure if they would have fared much better against the 04 Pats front 7.

Not to derail the argument, but this line of thought still bugs me. Seymour was spectacular in 2008, injured in 2007, and was no slouch prior to that, as well. Still not entirely sure why he gets such a bad rep around here, he was fantastic for us and was probably the best defensive player on the '03 team.

As for the hypothetical '04 d-line versus '07 o-line, I wouldn't use the Giants as a comparable. The patriots didn't really use the defensive line to generate interior pressure--that was more Bruschi's occasional job, if anything--and the Giants didn't abuse the '07 line on the edges too badly. Philosophically, the Giants' defensive line operates much differently from any Patriots line that we've had since Belichick got here, and it happens to operate in a way that plays right into Koppen's, Connolly's, and Brady's biggest vulnerabilities. They're basically our kryptonite, in that sense.

 

[ivanvamp]

Montana or Brady at their apex were not having good games vs that Bears defense on that day.

Maybe not, but just a few weeks earlier, Dan Marino did some pretty good work against them:

14-27, 270 yds, 3 td, 1 int in a 38-24 win

 

[RobertWeathers]

Maybe not, but just a few weeks earlier, Dan Marino did some pretty good work against them:

14-27, 270 yds, 3 td, 1 int in a 38-24 win

...sad that I remember watching that game as a 14 year old.

He was great.

 

[Steve102]

This has been discussed before, and acted on, over at whatifsports.com. I am not sure how it works, but I just ran 10 simulations, five with the 07 team as home squad, five at Glendale AZ. The results:

2004 - 2007
22 - 31
28 - 24
21 - 26
13 - 40
26 - 16 '07 3-2 final, '07 home
------------
Glendale
22 - 16
31 - 28
16 - 13
7 - 30
26 - 7 '04 4-1 final

What it mean? Nothing. Fun simulation though. Complete play by play and stats available.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Want to know why the 04 Pats were so good even with that secondary? Here's why: Big Sey (before he got paid), Ty Waren, Keith Traylor/Vince Wilfork, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Bruschi, Ted Johnson, and Rosevelt Colvin, Jarvis Green, and Roman Phifer coming off the bench.

The 07 o-line was humiliated by the Giants d-line. Not sure if they would have fared much better against the 04 Pats front 7.

Looks like the factory of stupid is back in operation.


And the master craftsman is back at it.

I guess you missed the point the most important players are........like the same players.

Ian, make it stop!!!!!!!!!!


LMFAO

 

[Kontradiction]

Not to derail the argument, but this line of thought still bugs me. Seymour was spectacular in 2008, injured in 2007, and was no slouch prior to that, as well. Still not entirely sure why he gets such a bad rep around here, he was fantastic for us and was probably the best defensive player on the '03 team.

As for the hypothetical '04 d-line versus '07 o-line, I wouldn't use the Giants as a comparable. The patriots didn't really use the defensive line to generate interior pressure--that was more Bruschi's occasional job, if anything--and the Giants didn't abuse the '07 line on the edges too badly. Philosophically, the Giants' defensive line operates much differently from any Patriots line that we've had since Belichick got here, and it happens to operate in a way that plays right into Koppen's, Connolly's, and Brady's biggest vulnerabilities. They're basically our kryptonite, in that sense.

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Kaczur got whipped like a rented mule in that game. But that was par for the course for him.

 

[1960Pats]

Yes, this is a common misconception. I often see it when people talk about the 20-3 beatdown in the divisional round thinking it was before the rule change, then after that the Colts started to have our number. Another thing is I believe Richard Seymour didn't play in this game or the AFCC in Pittsburgh which make it all the more amazing.

The major changes came after 2004. I think that was when penalties for ticky-tack touch fouls went from 5 and a 1st to as many yards as there is to the foul, sometimes handing a team an easy TD from the one after a 60+ yard pass. If you think back to the AFC title game in Indy in 2006, the Pats were victimized by two very long pass play penalties that helped set up the tying and winning TDs. On the winning call there was possibly no contact at all on a long pass into the end zone and the ball was placed on the one for the winning TD for Indy.

According to Mike Pereira in an interview that I heard on 98.5 just before he retired, it was Bill Polian who successfully pushed for those major changes while he was on the competition committee with a few of the other victims of our dynasty run. The league has been suffering for it ever since. Pereira claimed that he was dead set against the changes at the time.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The major changes came after 2004. I think that was when penalties for ticky-tack touch fouls went from 5 and a 1st to as many yards as there is to the foul, sometimes handing a team an easy TD from the one after a 60+ yard pass. If you think back to the AFC title game in Indy in 2006, the Pats were victimized by two very long pass play penalties that helped set up the tying and winning TDs. On the winning call there was possibly no contact at all on a long pass into the end zone and the ball was placed on the one for the winning TD for Indy.

According to Mike Pereira in an interview that I heard on 98.5 just before he retired, it was Bill Polian who successfully pushed for those major changes while he was on the competition committee with a few of the other victims of our dynasty run. The league has been suffering for it ever since. Pereira claimed that he was dead set against the changes at the time.

Are you sure? There were definitely changes before the 2004 season. After the 2003 AFCC Dungy sent the video to the league and complained, then that's when they put emphasis on illegal contact. And in Bruschi's interview after the 20-3 game, he said "You want to change the rules? Change em." alluding to those changes. In the plays you refer to, they were BS phantom calls yes but they do fall in the category of PI, not illegal contact because IIRC the ball was already in the air.

 

[Kontradiction]

The major changes came after 2004. I think that was when penalties for ticky-tack touch fouls went from 5 and a 1st to as many yards as there is to the foul, sometimes handing a team an easy TD from the one after a 60+ yard pass. If you think back to the AFC title game in Indy in 2006, the Pats were victimized by two very long pass play penalties that helped set up the tying and winning TDs. On the winning call there was possibly no contact at all on a long pass into the end zone and the ball was placed on the one for the winning TD for Indy.

According to Mike Pereira in an interview that I heard on 98.5 just before he retired, it was Bill Polian who successfully pushed for those major changes while he was on the competition committee with a few of the other victims of our dynasty run. The league has been suffering for it ever since. Pereira claimed that he was dead set against the changes at the time.

The worst call in that game was the face guarding penalty on Hobbs. That's especially considering that face guarding hadn't been penalized in years. Wouldn't you know it, the penalty then rears it's ugly head in the AFC Championship Game? In Indy, no less? Who woulda thunk it?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The issue I had with that game is that okay call the ticky tack BS interference on us, fine (not really but okay). But then Reche Caldwell was practically tackled in the end zone later in the game and they called nothing. At least be consistent. I think that game was more about the officials sucking and/or favoring the Colts than adhering to new rules. Now I definitely regret coming in here, getting into discussions about my 2 worst nights as a sports fan.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

The issue I had with that game is that okay call the ticky tack BS interference on us, fine (not really but okay). But then Reche Caldwell was practically tackled in the end zone later in the game and they called nothing. At least be consistent. I think that game was more about the officials sucking and/or favoring the Colts than adhering to new rules. Now I definitely regret coming in here, getting into discussions about my 2 worst nights as a sports fan.

The fix was in at the 2007 AFCCG.

The egregious call was late in the 2nd quarter with the Patriots up 21-3 and Watson had the first down in easy FG range.

That's when Troy got called for some mystical interference call eight time zones from the play. The half ended 21-6 vs 24-3 or 28-3.

The league couldn't keep having it's "cut that meat" #1 star continue as a playoff choke artist.

 

[ivanvamp]

The issue I had with that game is that okay call the ticky tack BS interference on us, fine (not really but okay). But then Reche Caldwell was practically tackled in the end zone later in the game and they called nothing. At least be consistent. I think that game was more about the officials sucking and/or favoring the Colts than adhering to new rules. Now I definitely regret coming in here, getting into discussions about my 2 worst nights as a sports fan.

Here's the play you're talking about involving Caldwell. Definite contact (way worse, obviously than the phantom PI that Hobbs got called for), but at least the defender was looking back.

Patriots were robbed - YouTube

Regarding the Hobbs PI call, replay official Dean Blandino, FWIW, later said (in an interview with Bob Boylston of jaguars.com) that Hobbs did not impede Wayne nor did he make contact with him, and the PI call on Hobbs was the wrong call.

GGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR