Welcome to PatsFans.com

2 Strategic Allies

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turk, Aug 2, 2006.

  1. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    AMID THE WAR
    By Tulin Dalogl
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    George Orwell once described"doublethink" as "the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." Neither belief need to be wrong, but they certainly can't both be right at the same time.

    Seven years ago, separatist Kurdish leader Abdullah Ocalan testified that many countries were supporting the PKK, including the members of the European Union that branded the PKK a terrorist organization. Half of them were members of the United Nations, and countries that should be Turkey's allies -- yet they were playing both sides of the issue.

    When President Bush and visiting Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki decided last week to address the PKK threat "aggressively," I recalled that even with a verdict in Ocalan's trial, a death sentence then to be commuted to life in prison, it didn't feel as though the bloody fight had ended. Undeniably, the Turkish state had some responsibilities, but the PKK's foreign support complicated the matter enormously.

    President Bush's national security adviser, Stephen Hadley, said Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari raised the PKK issue during the discussions last week. So I asked Mr. Zebari how they are going to address it. "Recently when I visited Ankara, I was given a very warm, friendly, respectful, cordial reception," he said. "We discussed with the government -- all these issues in great detail. I proposed to them to revive the tripartite committee -- Turkey, the U.S. and Iraq, with a member of the (Kurdistan) regional government also."

    To begin, Mr. Zebari said, the PKK office in Baghdad, called Ocalan Strategic Studies, (only 500 meters away from the Turkish Embassy), will be shut down immediately. The offices of a number of political parties allied with the PKK in Erbil and Sulaymaniyah will be shut down, too. "First of all, they are non-Iraqis," Mr. Zebari told me. "Second, this is not the place for them to operate or to lobby whatsoever. Third, there was a joint message delivered to them from [Masoud] Barzani, (the head of the Iraqi Kurdistan region), and [Iraqi President Jalal] Talabani, asking the PKK to stop fighting...[W]e believe that these measures will convince everybody that we are in business [to fight the PKK.]"

    Mr. Zebari stressed that the recent escalation in the PKK attacks "[c]ame after the Hezbollah -- Israel exchange." And that they are still committed to take the measures as agreed with Ankara. Mr. Zebari made it clear, however, that "the only safe place in Iraq is Iraqi Kurdistan." Yet he told me they are not seeking an independent Kurdistan. Amidst the daily death toll in Baghdad, Mr. Zebari said, "[a]ny [Turkish] incursion will not be acceptable to the Iraqi government or the U.S. government, because it will clearly undermine every prospect of a peaceful, democratic Iraq."

    Looking at Israel's fight against Hezbollah, however, there is one thing clear. The Turkish government lost an opportunity early on to show its strength with an air strike against the PKK strongholds in Kandil Mountains in Northern Iraq because it feared the U.S. and EU reaction. If it had followed though, the White House would have gotten the message that Turkey, just like Israel, is not afraid to fight back when attacked. Yet the point is that while Turkey is strongly advised not to fight PKK "militarily," the Western world is united behind Israel, even though they criticize the "proportionality" of Israel's response.

    But how do states determine what amount of force is fair and what is not? When it is attacked, should Turkey respond as Israel has to Hezbollah? Is the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq a "proportional" response to September 11? How do we justify one country's right to defend itself and not others?

    Turkey remains responsible even if it never retaliated against the PKK to such a degree. But Turkey has paid too high a price for its actions in the battle against PKK terror. The Kurds have received U.S. support even for their demand of general amnesty for PKK members in Northern Iraq. But Congress sees no such responsibility to give amnesty to members of the insurgency in Iraq who have killed U.S. troops.

    Given the support Turkey's allies have offered the PKK, the measures Mr. Zebari outlined -- so far -- fall short in addressing the issue. If Iraqi officials accept the PKK as a terrorist organization, they should close its affiliates' offices and send a strong message to end the fighting, anyway. At his trial, Ocalan talked about how the PKK found safe heaven, arms and support from both Iraqi Kurdish parties. Now the Kurdish threat to Turkey is much more serious than it was a decade ago.

    It's critically important, though, to Turkey's security and territorial integrity that today it not be goaded into responding if it is provoked into carrying out a cross-border operation into Northern Iraq, according to Mahir Kaynak, a former Turkish intelligence officer. Western media would report that Kurds were being massacred by the Turkish army, which could boost calls for U.N. intervention. That intervention would accelerate the process of creating an independent Kurdistan taking land from Turkey. And that seals the difference between Turkey and Israel -- both named as "strategic" allies to the United States.
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Turk,
    Do you accept the possibility of a free and independent Kurdish state? Regardless of what part of it would be extracted from Iraq and Turkey, don't you think the right of self-determination is inviolate?
  3. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Self determination is most inviolate, but you know as well as I do that things are never that black and white, unless you are George W. Bush, of course.
    Since you have asked that question:
    Do you accept the possibility of free and independent Native American states scatterred all around this land, extracting land from the USA?
    How about NM, and CA being handed over to the Mexicans, and Miami to Cubans?
    I do not know where you live but I am pretty sure that if we were to look deeply enough, we could come up with someone who could make a claim on that land.
    However, that is not even the issue at hand.
    The article focuses on our double and sometimes tripple standards, internally and when dealing with our allies, faced with terrorism.
    PKK is a terrorist organization and is recognized as such by the USA. It is responsible for the deaths of thousands of women and children.
    We, unquestioningly, support Israel when she attacks a sovereign Nation in the pursuit of a captured soldier by a terrorist organization and yet put the brakes on Turkey when her death toll has reached 30,000 because of PKK which is another terrorist organization.
    Heck, we even try to arm those terrorists, just so that they may help our invasion of their country in Iraq.
    It is OK for us to invade a country who had nothing to do with 9/11, in the name of fighting the good fight against terrorism and yet change the standards when it comes to someone else?
    Turkey has citizens of many different ethnic backgrounds, just like we do here in the USA.
    Should they all kill and bomb post offices, elementary schools, train stations, hospitals, police stations, malls, etc?
    If your answer is yes, for freedom, then why not here in the USA? Why not in any other country in the world? You would be hard pressed to find one country that has that type of ethnic purity and by the way there is an ugly name for that, one that we do not approve of, as long as it suits us, of course.

    While we are at it, how about the Palestinians whose land and resources are taken from them, with our help?

    Another fact of course is that there is no right or privilige that any Turkish citizen has more than any other just because they are of a different ethnic background, again just like here in the USA. The violence is fueled by the same folks that are counting their profits in Iraq.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    37,998
    Likes Received:
    283
    Ratings:
    +566 / 4 / -12

    #87 Jersey

    I am not as well versed as Turk on the Kurds...however why shouldn't they enjoy their own state. They have their own government, language, and culture already.

    But let's face it...if they got their own country they would be in more danger than they are in now due to the oil in Northern Iraq.

    I still think Iraq would work better as 1 country with 3 regions. Sort of like the U.S.A. with 3 states. The one thing that would lead to problems is the oil...all 3 would share equally with oil profits.

    Also...just to shove it up everyone's butts...especially the gloom and doom liberals here...All holy sites would be independant protected sites of the country...to prove to the world that they can exist together...which the liberals still believe is impossible.
  5. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I agree with most of your post. No Indian in his right mind would want Worcester back.

    No one has the right to bomb and kill unless their demands for freedom and independence have gone unheard. I have nowhere near your insight on Turkish society, but seems to me Turkey would be better served by giving the Kurds part of what they want when they get their own state for the sake of everyone. I suspect there is more of a strategic reason for the Turkish position regarding the Kurds.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2006
  6. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    It is not a question of strategy WPF, just the simple fact that no country gives up land.
    The question of freedom and independence is also a very grey area here. Independence from what, and whom?
    An independent Kurdish country?
    Should every single ethnicity be given land, in every country in the world?
    If so, why?
    How should we achieve that, by extracting land from existing countries?
    How many countries would fall into that category?
    The land they want from Turkey has always been Turkish land, and just because there is a large population of citizens in that area that are of Kurdish background is no reason, in my opinion, because they are just that, citizens of Turkey, with Kurdish ancestry, just as citizens with any other ethnic background, no more and no less.
    Having said all that; I was a vocal critic of the Turkish Government and its policies, in the eighties and the early to mid nineties, on this issue. The reason being that, Turkish Government attempted to wipe out the culture, language, and ethnicity of the Kurds by passing laws that made it illegal to speak Kurdish, to name a newborn with a Kurdish name, and failed to (refused to) recognize and respect the ethnicity of the Kurds. That futile, backwards, Harry-like fascistic attempt backfired and we had people demanding respect, rightfully.
    Since then though, a number of laws have been passed and reforms have shaped the new and modern Turkey where every citizen, no matter what ethnic background, enjoys the same rights and privileges. It does not state on one's records of any kind, what your religion, color, sexual orientation, ethnicity is. There are a number of elementary and secondary level schools that teach in, and TV / radio stations that broadcast in Kurdish, Greek, Arabic, Persian, English, French, German, and Turkish. You are free to name your child whatever you wish. You can speak whatever language you wish. You can form a political party, which the Kurdish Turks have, to represent your views in the political arena. So, what exactly is the freedom that is being sought, now?
    The answer is the same as in any other conflict you may witness around the world. There is profit to be made, and if a few thousand people die in the process, so be it. If the dead are not Judo-Christians, the world is not going to lift a finger anyway, and if it is Muslims killing each other; hell, that is a double bonus.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2006
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    39,114
    Likes Received:
    124
    Ratings:
    +335 / 1 / -9

    After that is established they will then proceed to slaughter each other.
    :bricks:
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2005
  8. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

  9. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    Isn't it interesting that no one mentions the Iraqi Turkomen of the North.
    It is as though they don't even exist.
    Census offices, and all records were the first to be pillaged and destroyed by the Iraqi Kurds in Mousul and Kirkuk, and now the Turkomen are never even mentioned, any more. These are the people who made up the majority of the population in Kirkuk and a considerable minority in Mousul, before the war.
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I was just reading how there hasn't been a census done in Lebanon since 1932!

    http://www.country-studies.com/lebanon/population.html

    The reason, of course, is to keep the majority of parliament in the control of the Christians, who have formed an alliance with the Muslim (but non-Islamic) Druze. If a census were done today, the Islamists and Hezbollah would have control and a large majority. There are no plans to do a census.
  12. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,672
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    What is the relationship of Turkmenistan with the Turks and Turkomen? I fugured I'd as you first.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2005
  13. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Similar ethnicity, same language with a different dialect, same religion, etc.
    Turkish ancestry is tribes from N. China because of whom the Great Wall was built, to protect the Chinese.
    Historians say that, after years of drought, they all moved westward, some along with some other tribes, some alone.
    The tribe that settled in Anatolia were the Selchuks, who later on merged with the Ottoman tribe to form a great Empire.
    Some others moved to Hungary, some to Scandinavia, (hence the drastic difference between the blond and dark haired Scandinavians), some settled in what later on became what is now the former USSR, some in N. Iraq and Iran. Some did not move at all, the Mongols stayed and formed a pretty ferociuos army of their own. They almost wiped out the Roman Empire and the Vatican.
    Turks that settled in Anatolia and formed the Ottoman Empire went on to rule half of Europe, all of the Middle East, Northern Africa, etc. for almost 600 years.
    After the WWI, the Ottoman Empire which had been crumbling anyway, was demolished. her land split up amongst the vultures and then the Turkish General, Ataturk, who defeated the occupying English, French and Greek forces formed the new Turkish Republic.
    It is said that there are 5-10 times as many people of Turkic origin living elsewhere, under different citizenships. When you consider that the population of Turkey is 80 million, then you realize the significance of this number.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>