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19 yr old US Citizen Among The Dead

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Leave No Doubt, Jun 3, 2010.

  1. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Yeah, but according to "Raw Story" and some previously unheard of blogger it's ok because: it is reasonable to infer that he was one of those attacking Israeli soldiers with a club, knife or other weapon and was shot in self-defense.

    I am unsure how Powerline blogger, John Hinderaker, feels he can reasonably infer this from nothing more than the fact that the dude got shot in the head 4 times but hey, what do I know?

    What's more, he doesn't even count as an "American Citizen" because he was only a citizen by birth. He spent most of his life in Turkey.

    From this information I can reasonably infer that his death doesn't matter.
  3. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    I'm pretty sure that when you commit to a violent act when there's a peaceful alternative, you're throwing your life away.
  4. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    does that refer to soldiers as well as civilians?
  5. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    The Times quotes his brother saying, on behalf of the family, "we were not sorry to hear that he fell like a martyr."

    Sounds to me like he deserved to die.
  6. Leave No Doubt

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    Sweetjezuz A Clockwork Orange really IS alive and well right here on patsfans political forum. That and apparently one would garner more sympathy ("count") if they were an illegal alien who snuck over the border and snuffed a rancher or two, than one who earned his or her citizenship. Wow, just wow.

    :eek:I just looked out the window to check if any drones are headed my way, maybe I deserve to die for posting about a 19 year old boy, a boy who earned his citizenship here, a boy who was not just murdered but massacred in a very up close and personal way by persons or a person unknown.

    I'm far less afraid of some underwear bomber than I am of some people ( I use that term loosely) right here.
  7. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    I don't think it has anything to do with his citizenship. And I equate him to the reporters and such who go in to Iran or North Korea and end up getting thrown in jail for being spies. Were they spies? More than likely not. Were they innocent? More than likely. Did they deserve to be thrown in jail? Of course not. Do they deserve pity? Hell no. If you're stupid enough to venture in to North Korea and start poking around, you deserve what you get. If you are an "innocent" who decides to go poking around in the Gaza strip and end up dead, well, come on. Really? It's not like that is a big vacation destination. It's one of the most violent areas on earth. If we take time out of our day to feel sorry for all the stupid people on earth, we'll have no time left to be happy.
  8. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    No.

    (10 char)
  9. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If I decided to embark on a humanitarian mission (I assume this was indeed his mission) to Gaza or Africa my parents would freak. But they'd also support the fact I at least had a cause I believed in that deeply. Would I be stupid to do such a thing? Maybe, but if that's true then they'd also say my cousin was stupid for enlisting in the military as he'd likely die.

    And no, people shouldn't dwell on atrocities but it's humanizing to once in awhile feel something for slaughtered kids. Or at the very least acknowledge them. But that's just me.
    edit: my remarks on citizenship pertained to another reply, not yours.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Making up ethics on the fly to fit your POV, huh?

    The boat was in international waters. Israeli forces attacked that boat. Who were the ones committed to violence? Do you really think the Israelis expected to be welcomes with open arms? If so, then why were they so heavily armed? This was a clear provokation and the people on that boat did the right thing defending themselves.

    If a boatload of Israelis was boarded by Hamas troops with machine guns and tried to defend themselves by any means possible, they would be considered heroic martyrs. Shortly after, about 10 villages in Gaza would be bolldozed and dozens of people would be randomly killed by helicopter gunfire and missiles....and you would be cheering.

    But since Israel was the attacking force, everything's good with you. Reason need not apply. People from the US, Europe, Gaza and Turkey on a relief supply boat are worth much less than Israeli soldiers with machine guns...in fact they don't even matter.
  11. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    If you can't rationalize the difference between a soldier and a civilian, I fear for your bubble of reality.
  12. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Please...feel free to tell the class how they are so different instead of throwaway comments like that. I've been in both worlds and I have some means of comparison, as I'm sure you have.
  13. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    Belief has nothing to do with stupidity. I believe that the people of North Korea are oppressed and deserve to be heard, etc... but I'm not stupid enough to think it's safe for me to go there. And joining the military doesn't make it likely to die, ha. We've actually got the lowest KIA rate ever in the history of American warefare.
    And I feel a lot worse for the kids in some poor country in Africa that have no food, no shelter, are likely to be raped before becoming a teenager, etc... THEY deserve our pity, our help, our public outcry of displeasure. Not some guy who was dumb enough to go in to an extremely hostile and contested area and ended up getting killed.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  14. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    According to the ROE, you aren't allowed to commit a violent act while there is a peaceful alternative. If you do commit a violent act without provocation you can be kicked out/thrown in jail/put to death so I guess it's kind of like throwing your life away.
  15. Leave No Doubt

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    I'm not so sure about that which I bolded. I'd also say there are parts of Africa that are pretty risky. KIA's are not the only casualties of war but that's another topic entirely ;) So is judging who deserves to (randomly and outside judicial perview) die and who doesn't.
  16. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Figured
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  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    in khayos's authoritarian world, rules like that don't apply to the folks wearing badges, carrying guns, etc.

    Respect their authoritah!
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    heh... "rationalize" is right
    (Freudian slip?)
  19. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    The bolded part: From what you said I interpreted it as though you believed because the individual's intentions were good, that they somehow justified doing something stupid (like going to Gaza during a blockade...).
    There are places that are "risky" and there are places that you KNOW you are bound to get in trouble going to. BOTH sides in the Gaza conflict are fans of the shoot first and don't ask questions later motto.
    And I believe I (and you, and everyone else) have the right to judge people. As did our founding fathers, which is why our bill of rights gives us the right of trial by jury :)
  20. Leave No Doubt

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    My response was in general; sometimes what one believes can lead them to do something stupid. Obviously. Some people believe in myths and don't mind dying for them. That's their choice, weird and stupid as it may be. This particular situation wasn't a myth. As to the topic, his ship was in international waters so perhaps he figured it was risky but something which to him was worth the risk. Judging people-as I said, outside of judicial perview which means, outside of a court of law. Nothing to do with the founding fathers :cool: Anyway, you've decided he was asking for it, I've decided it was pretty sickening, so I'll just agree to disagree.
  21. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    Don't believe in God much, heh?
  22. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    I believe that we have the right to judge others which is WHY the founding fathers put it in the bill of rights and made it part of the judicial system.
    And I don't think he was asking for it persay, I just think that he knew the risks and doesn't deserve a bunch of media hoopla. Even his family said they weren't sad, that he died a martyrs death. Kind of makes me suspect maybe he knew what the end result would be.
  23. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    For once, LND and I agree wholeheartedly.

    The bottom line is - which one among us would not, if our ship/boat/plane/car/home was invaded by a bunch of guys carrying guns would NOT pick up the nearest baseball bat, kitchen knife or metal pipe and try to protect ourselves? For Israel not to have anticipated such a reaction before having their soldiers rappel into a ship sailing on International Waters was, well, I can't quite believe it was simply poor judgement. I am heartily disappointed in them.

    The majority of people who do things like try to bring supplies to blockaded countries are, for the most part, dreamers and idealists. And yes, they are as worthy of our pity as is the child in Africa. One cannot help being a dreamer or an idealist and more than one can help being left-handed or a capitalist. It is what it is. They serve a very necessary purpose whether others understand it or not. There should be no limit to the numbers of people we can pity - the heart has enormous capacity for emotion. There should be no need to reserve our sorrow for some specific group or to decide who is more worthy of what actually costs us nothing to expend.
  24. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    Nope, but I think it doesn't matter. Even if there is a god who created man in his image, he gave us self awareness and intellect, it would seem an insult to not use that which he gave us.
  25. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    If a bunch of people busted in to my house with guns I personally would NOT attack them with a bat or knife to protect myself because I value my life and I've always heard that taking a knife to a gun fight is a good way to lose that life. One can not help being an idealist, ok. But I would argue one CAN help going on a boat to a hostile area and then attacking people who have guns.
    As for pitying everyone, my arguement there is that if you pity everyone you don't leave yourself any time for happiness.
    And don't get me started on those lefties!!! UGH.
  26. Leave No Doubt

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    A 19 yo American Citizen is slaughtered while en route to deliver food etc, and we judge him as stupid and therefore deserving of being massacred by having his brains blown out, not once, not twice, but FOUR TIMES, man, FOUR TIMES. Throw one in the chest just for good measure. Nice. GOD help us, man. Like Jim Morrison sang/screamed: "Save us Jezuz". Whoa.

    I'm an American citizen born and raised, I sure hope I don't do anything "stupid", like stand up and take action for something I believe in.
  27. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    He left America at the age of 2, I doubt he shared many of our American values, but it really doesn't matter where he's from.
    He was delivering food to the Gaza strip, not uptown Hoboken.
    He was likely shot initially once in the chest and then 4 times to the head, though I doubt he felt anything after the first one.
    You obviously believe these people at Gaza need food. Why haven't you brought it to them? Because you value your life. You understand the inherent danger.
    Again, my main point of contention here has also been that his family called him a martyr which lead me to believe that he knew he was going to die and that his intentions aren't as "pure" as you might like to believe.
    I WILL contend that maybe I have a bias against his apparent religious beliefs and I will also give you the fact that I am probably above average in cynicism about life.
    I still contend that if you get shot by a stray bullet while driving your car, I will mourn you. If you get shot driving your car intentionally through a police blockade, I will call you an idiot.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  28. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    What will you do for the person who intentionally drives through the police blockade in order to save someone's life?

    Like it or not, believe in the cause or not, that's exactly what some idealists believe they are doing by bringing food to a blockaded area.

    And, just a small point, but a point nevertheless, the ship wasn't "intentionally driving through a police blockade," they were sailing in International Waters. Kinda like if you were driving down the street 40 miles away from a police blockade and the cops suddenly burst through your windshield and pointed a gun at your head because you were kinda/sorta in the vicinity.

    There are lots of ways to prevent a ship from entering a restricted area other than rappeling into it with guns drawn - those methods could have, and should have, been employed.

    You can actually ask the Jews themselves about those methods - or read the book "Exodus" by Leon Uris.
  29. Leave No Doubt

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    You know nothing about what charities or donations of time, money and/or food etc I or my friends and family may participate in so we'll just leave that badboy alone. And I'm absolutely one of the most cynical people on this forum, if not in real life as well. I have no reason to believe his intentions were not good and your only premise is that his parents called him a martyr. I know the word "martyr" is part of terror-speak but maybe, just maybe, this boy's parents are finding some solace in believing he died for a good cause (aka using the term "martyr"?).

    They'd better re-do their semantics. Scary sh*t.

    Last I knew Turkey is one of our allies.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  30. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    He also gave us some rules - rules like, "Judge not lest ye be judged," and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    And my personal favorite, which I'd love to live by but usually fail miserably when I try: "Don't criticize people, and you will not be criticized. For you will be judged by the way you criticize others, and the measure you give will be the measure you receive."

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