Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by jack, Jan 15, 2008.
Good, these guys do a hard job and deserve to be paid for it. They earned the extra doing overtime in addition to their normal salary. I'm sure libs now will feel they earn too much so will cut their base salary. If guys want to work harder when available to better themselves then i am fine with that.
Over $200.000 for a cop? I did'nt think that was possible..
Are unions good mtbykr? or are unions bad?
Unions can be good or bad, depending on a many numbers of things.
Isn't the union gripe that conservatives have , is high wages?
Not exactly. I think the gripe with unions (not necessarily by Conservatives) is that they look after their own to the expense of others, and I don't mean the corporations. Sometimes it seems as if they push things too far with a certain amount of short-sightedness. I don't know many specifics on the subject, but I don't think conservatives get mad because the mean old working man is pushing around the defenseless corporation (though that's often the perception).
Like fighting with management on issues that go unresolved until there's a strike?
Why does the republican party not like unions?.......... Anybody on the board know the reason?
This is exactly what I'm always talking about. Emotion should never be involved in government. When you bend over like cities do when the title teacher, fireman, or policeman are involved, you get what you deserve, and that's massive government, less service, and higher taxation for your residents. This is part of the reason why governments of all types are so broken. My friends and I were just discussing this very article via email. Anyhow, I'll post some snippets of note.
Samuel Tyler -- president of the Boston Municipal Research Bureau, a business-funded watchdog group -- called the numbers troubling and said that the city will have to find ways to cut costs in the future. Tyler said that since officer pay increased with new contracts, the department must be more vigilant about managing expensive overtime and sick time. In contract arbitration, the patrolmen's union won a 14.5 percent pay raise over four years.
''I think it is a factor of collective bargaining," Tyler said. ''It certainly has made the cost of providing services, particularly police services, much more expensive. That has to be taken into consideration when we have these discussions about manpower being less than it was 10 years ago. Well, 10 years ago it didn't cost nearly so much for an officer."
According to an independent budget commission, the average salary for a patrolman in New York is $66,000. The average Boston police officer earns $83,700.
Tyler said he hopes officials will consider hiring more civilians in areas where police officers are not needed, though he acknowledged the clout of the police unions here may make it difficult to eliminate jobs and some of the perks Boston officers enjoy, such as the paid detail system, which exists almost nowhere else in the country.
The beef is far more complicated than wages. The beef involves restricting the power of the employer versus the employee. Unions make it next to impossible for owners to run a business freely. Try firing a sh!tty teacher and tell me how you make out in 10 years when you might reach arbitration. Try firing a cop, or laying blame on a fireman who went to a blaze while intoxicated. Unions certainly have their benefits, and purpose, but like corporations, are as just as evil and ruthless as they were once needed. I'm speaking generally of course.
I think there are good and bad in them. The main problem I have is that there is no standard. I feel that someone should do their job to the best of their ability, and if they screw around and are lazy they should be fired and someone who is willing to do it should have an opportunity at that job. The problem is that if the first person is a member of a union, then no matter what they do (short of a crime) they can't be fired. There is no incentive to work your hardest becuase there are no repercussions if you don't.
Maybe I came across wrong, I don't (or do my best) not to let emotion sway my thinking. My point was that according to the article they earned the majority of their money by working over and above their 'job requirements' doing overtime, ect... I don't think every cop should be given a $200k salary, but i do think that if they want to work extra, and above what is required of them for extra $$ then that should be encouraged. I don't think it should be given to them, but if they want to better themselves by going the extra mile then good for them.
My beef with unions is that they protect the lazy 5% at the expense of the hard working 95%. Also many unions donate dues to political causes and candidates that 50% of the members would never vote for or support.
I think a big part of it is that unions have gone from something necessary to protect the rights and well being of workers to a system that ensures rewards despite the quality of the work done, the amount of work done, or the performance of the company. Incompetent people become entrenched in the system and are impossible to get rid of, while mediocrity is rewarded. Plus many unions tell their members how to vote in elections, sometimes pressuring them to make sure they vote according to the union's wishes.
That's a much better way of putting it then I did. Thanks.
I have no problem with men working hard and men working hard for more money... but one of my biggest gripes with the way this state is run is Massachusetts is one of the only states (if not the only state) where it is mandated to have police details at road worksites instead of just regular flagmen. So that's a sh*tload of unnecessary OT for the officers at the expense of Joe Taxpayer. And before anyone talks about how much safer they are, there have been studies done showing that uniformed officers are no safer than regular flagmen.
The problem is that the average salary of a Boston cop is $83,000+. When you add that to the perks and bennies, you get a massive fleecing. I don't mean to pick on your post, it's just that your response was what most people typically say about teachers, fireman, and police officers when it comes to a contract and pay. I have no problems with paying those people an honest a good wage, but what we see now is a fleecing. Think about it, the pop increases, with the tax burden, and the police force shrinks, while it's costs skyrocket. Something is terribly broken. If you're going to have retarded laws like details, then you shouldn't be averaging $83k an officer. You should pay them $45k, and let them make the difference with OT and details. They not only get it both ways, but they get upside down and on top.
Very well said!
I think we are on the same page...my main point was just let's not kill the guys who want to work extra to better themselves. I'm not living in Mass so it's tough for me to say what would be an appropriate base salary. (i have friends that are LEO's down here that make $30k) I just think it's important to keep open the possibility for extra income if the LEO's choose to work extra and better themselves.
They sure do.
I was a working Teamster for 42 years, during the 1970's I lost my job due to Ted Kenendy's deregulation and had to start all over again building my seniority and vacation time with another company.
Several months after losing my job Uncle Teddy visited our union hall on a Sunday morning in Charlestown Mass, Uncle Teddy was going to give us one of his little rousing bullsh!t speeches where he bellows and spits all over anybody within ten feet of him.
When this rotten bastard walked onto the stage he recieved a standing ovation from all but a few of us who could think for ourselves, Teddy was looking for something, he was looking for votes for another democrat who was running for something, our President and our business agents and Uncle Teddy wern't asking us for our vote they were Telling us who to vote for, WELL THEY WERN'T TELLING ME, we all had a chance to stand up and speak if we wished, I stood up and looked Ted Kennedy right in the face and said "Your Deregulation Put Me Out Of The Best Job I Ever Had And I Almost Lost My Home Because Of It" I then turned to my president and business agents and said "when I close the curtain behind me I vote for who the hell I want to"
I worked with a guy that believed the Democratic Party was his "Church" and that Ted Kennedy was his God, he couldn't believe that I would talk like that to his beloved Kennedy.
For all the years I worked with this guyI never liked him and he never liked me, today was the day, for years we both knew that some day we would have it out, we Fought for almost two hours in the street in Sullivan Sq before it was broken up by the union officials and the Boston Cops. In Later years we worked together again in the old Star Market Transportation Dept, we had a lot of respect for each other, he remained a democrat I didn't, he passed away three years ago, I went to his wake and his funeral and we are still friendly with his wife.
NEVER LET ANYBODY TELL YOU WHO TO VOTE FOR NOT THE UNION NOT YOUR WIFE AND NOT EVEN GOD IF YOU HAPPEN TO SPEAK WITH HIM, WE ARE STILL FREE WHEN IT COMES TO VOTING.
(Ted Kennedy visited our union hall many times back then)
Extra income and stuff is great. Everyone should have the opportunity to earn more. The problem is with the salary structure, and how cops get significant pay increases for college degrees that the department pays for, on top of forcing everyone to pay for a police detail at $40-50 an hour, in 4 hour minimum increments. I don't want to come across as insensitive, or anything, but averaging $83k in salary is alot. Take that average, and add in all the benefits, training, administration, equipement, insurance, etc.. and wonder what each officer costs the city. It's certainly more than $100k per. That means every 10 cops will cost you a minimum of $1 million. That's just crazy. Worse, they won't let you hire civilians to help ease the pain, and allow cities to put more police on the street.
My neighbor is a cop ... one day we were talking and I asked him why is it that every time there is a trafiic jam you can be sure a cop is directing the traffic.
So we go back and forth for a few minutes and he says this to me.
"Police do not make nearly enough considering they put their life at risk everyday and we are definitely underpaid. Why is it that I can make double the money directing traffic that I can make getting shot at? I have to direct traffic and police events to support my family because getting shot at does not pay enough these days."
He's right ...
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