11-5 vs. 8-8

[upstater1]

Er, I never said 8-8 is better than 11-5. I even said the Patriots are better than the Chargers right now, despite the fact the Chargers beat them and are on a 3-0 run. One thing I did say was the Chargers could be viewed as a 9-7 (if they beat Denver this Sunday, not a given) due to the worst call in the history of the NFL. Can't see any reasonable argument against that. Not complaining, if the Chargers lose to Denver this week they don't deserve to be Division Champs. But let's face it, the Chargers should be on track to be 9-7 and actually would have clinched the division Sunday if not for that call.

And? So what? Did I insult you and say you have difficulty admitting you were wrong, or something? Don't be surprised if I credit you for being a good person, and then add a sarcastic Einstein remark at the end. I was just responding to your post when I wrote that.

 

[Deus Irae]

There's no misread there. You simply keep changing terms. The term I used was "impressive". An 8 win season can be more impressive than an 11 win season, depending upon the respective circumstances.


Give me an example. You can't.

How about a quick and easy one....

Had THIS year's Patriots gone 8-8 and LAST year's Patriots gone 11-5, the 8-8 from this year would have been the more impressive season.

And, for the record, disagreement is not only fine with me, it's what makes a message board. There's a difference, however, between a reasonable, rational argument and arguments based upon poor logic, falsehoods, general silliness, etc... For example:

I happen to think that Brady is the G.O.A.T., but I can respect someone who chooses Unitas, Montana, or Starr (just examples) instead. They could point to statistics, opinions of other football greats, and other perfectly reasonable arguments to defend their opinions. However, someone who asserted that the G.O.A.T. was Ryan Leaf would be "silly", "ridiculous", "making an idiotic assertion", etc...

Unfortunately, on this thread, you've been the equivalent of a Ryan Leaf supporter.

 

[upstater1]

How about a quick and easy one....

Had THIS year's Patriots gone 8-8 and LAST year's Patriots gone 11-5, the 8-8 from this year would have been the more impressive season.

And, for the record, disagreement is not only fine with me, it's what makes a message board. There's a difference, however, between a reasonable, rational argument and arguments based upon poor logic, falsehoods, general silliness, etc... For example:

I happen to think that Brady is the G.O.A.T., but I can respect someone who chooses Unitas, Montana, or Starr (just examples) instead. They could point to statistics, opinions of other football greats, and other perfectly reasonable arguments to defend their opinions. However, someone who asserted that the G.O.A.T. was Ryan Leaf would be "silly", "ridiculous", "making an idiotic assertion", etc...

Unfortunately, on this thread, you've been the equivalent of a Ryan Leaf supporter.

Blah, I'd like to see one other person agree with you here. Just one.

What's your logic? How did you come up with that example?8-8 against this year's schedule is NOWHERE near as impressive as 11-5 against last year's schedule. That's just beyond absurd. It's one of the stupidest things anyone here has ever posted.

The fact that you wrote that and then you believe my posts are absurd pretty much goes to show how clueless and deranged you are. You're living in a fantasyland, my friend. I'm willing to bet that NO ONE agrees with you on this one, and beyond that certainly no one would characterize the opposing viewpoint as ridiculous, which is what you have been ludicrously claiming.

You tell me on what basis you're making the above claim about records. What's your logic?

 

[Deus Irae]

Blah, I'd like to see one other person agree with you here. Just one.

What's your logic? How did you come up with that example?8-8 against this year's schedule is NOWHERE near as impressive as 11-5 against last year's schedule. That's just beyond absurd. It's one of the stupidest things anyone here has ever posted.

The fact that you wrote that and then you believe my posts are absurd pretty much goes to show how clueless and deranged you are. You're living in a fantasyland, my friend. I'm willing to bet that NO ONE agrees with you on this one, and beyond that certainly no one would characterize the opposing viewpoint as ridiculous, which is what you have been ludicrously claiming.

You tell me on what basis you're making the above claim about records. What's your logic?

1.) Notice that it's you who makes the attacks personal, while mine have centered around your argument

2.) Rather than have me explain my logic, Let's walk you through it.

a.) What was the team record the season before last?
b.) What were the additions/subtractions made from the team before the 16-0 season?
c.) What were the win projections for last year's team?
d.) What, if any, major injuries were there that were lengthy and/or of great impact on that team?

Start there and, hopefully, you'll begin to get it.

 

[upstater1]

1.) Notice that it's you who makes the attacks personal, while mine have centered around your argument

2.) Rather than have me explain my logic, Let's walk you through it.

a.) What was the team record the season before last?
b.) What were the additions/subtractions made from the team before the 16-0 season?
c.) What were the win projections for last year's team?
d.) What, if any, major injuries were there that were lengthy and/or of great impact on that team?

Start there and, hopefully, you'll begin to get it.

LOL, do you know me personally? All I am to you is words on a page. Jeez, man, you're reaqching new depths. You don't know me from Adam. The only presence I have here is in the form of my arguments and words. I know you from yours, and as far as I'm concerned, Deus Irae is an internet presence with delusions of grandeur.

If Deus Irae is truly your real name, then I apologize. I've met several Patriot fans on here at games, and I'll be hooking up with them this weekend in Buffalo again. If you're internalizing what someone is saying on the internet, heed this advice quick: seek therapy.

Your questions are meaningless and irrelevant in a discussion about 11-5 records versus 8-8 records. I wasn't even talking to you initially, but I responded to richpats. And then I said: "This is the NFL. No matter what division you're in, 11 games are much much harder to win than 8. Unquestionably, a 11-5 team deserves it more than an 8-8 team no matter how weak their division is, not to mention the fact that the two 8-8 teams in question play in the NFL's two weakest divisions."

That's my point. None of your questions relate to this point whatsoever.

 

[Deus Irae]

LOL, do you know me personally? All I am to you is words on a page. Jeez, man, you're reaqching new depths. You don't know me from Adam. The only presence I have here is in the form of my arguments and words. I know you from yours, and as far as I'm concerned, Deus Irae is an internet presence with delusions of grandeur.

If Deus Irae is truly your real name, then I apologize. I've met several Patriot fans on here at games, and I'll be hooking up with them this weekend in Buffalo again. If you're internalizing what someone is saying on the internet, heed this advice quick: seek therapy.

goes to show how clueless and deranged you are

That's about the person, not the argument. I don't care what you call me, because I just look to the source. However, you were the one who started off on the personal avenue, not me.

Your questions are meaningless and irrelevant in a discussion about 11-5 records versus 8-8 records. I wasn't even talking to you initially, but I responded to richpats. And then I said: "This is the NFL. No matter what division you're in, 11 games are much much harder to win than 8. Unquestionably, a 11-5 team deserves it more than an 8-8 team no matter how weak their division is, not to mention the fact that the two 8-8 teams in question play in the NFL's two weakest divisions."

That's my point. None of your questions relate to this point whatsoever.

You responded to me and my post, repeatedly. You made comments that confused both arguments, which is something I told you you were doing. Rather than just concede that you might have confused the two, you kept making silly assertions and got more and more antagonistic. You were wrong and couldn't admit it.

Of course, that's yet another irony right there, because the real shame of it is that your argument is perfectly valid if focused solely on the current (Chargers) particular instance, since the Chargers are having a disappointing season, even though it's wrong as a general application, We needn't have wasted 2 pages of this thread had you not gotten a wild hair across your ass about something as widely accepted as the notion that, due to circumstances, some seasons are more impressive than others no matter what the records may be, whether it's 16-0, 11-5, 10-6 or 8-8.

 

[upstater1]

Deus Irae: That's about the person, not the argument. I don't care what you call me, because I just look to the source. However, you were the one who started off on the personal avenue, not me.

Unreal. How can I make this less personal when all I know about you is that you have a habit of misrepresenting and falsifying? Is that a personal failing of yours? Or is it the way you think? ir is it just happening in the case of this particular argument (knowing, of course, that I've been on here fr ages and have seen your exchanges with other posters). I'm just calling a spade a spade.


Of course, that's yet another irony right there, because the real shame of it is that your argument is perfectly valid if focused solely on the current (Chargers) particular instance, since the Chargers are having a disappointing season, even though it's wrong as a general application, We needn't have wasted 2 pages of this thread had you not gotten a wild hair across your ass about something as widely accepted as the notion that, due to circumstances, some seasons are more impressive than others no matter what the records may be, whether it's 16-0, 11-5, 10-6 or 8-8

The sheer stupidity of your point, in a thread whose subject is about who is more deserving of the playoffs (an 8-8 team or a 11-5 team), is astounding. We're not here to debate whether the Lions would have been impressive this year if they managed to win 8 games or whatever. This thread is about who is more deserving of the playoffs, a 11-5 team or a 8-8 team. I generalized beyond the Chargers-Patriots situation and said that a 11-5 team would always be more deserving than a 8-8 team because this is the NFL, and it's because it's harder to go 11-5 against a weak schedule than it is to go 8-8 against a tough schedule. Last year's Patriots' schedule, one of the toughest in Patriots' history, basically proves this since we could have gone 8-8 with wins over the Jets, Bills, Phins, Browns and Bengals. That shows that going 8-8 is not very difficult. Going 11-5 against an easy schedule is more difficult than that. That's what I said in my original post to Richpats, and I've stuck with that position all throughout here. I've been consistent, unlike yourself.

 

[Deus Irae]

Unreal. How can I make this less personal when all I know about you is that you have a habit of misrepresenting and falsifying? Is that a personal failing of yours? Or is it the way you think? ir is it just happening in the case of this particular argument (knowing, of course, that I've been on here fr ages and have seen your exchanges with other posters). I'm just calling a spade a spade.

And again with the personal attacks. Furthermore, I've neither misrepresented nor falsified anything you've posted here. However, it's been interesting watching you lose your mind after berating me with such a gem as "when you proclaim arguments ridiculous, absurd, and illegitimate." Pots, Kettles and the like are amused worldwide.

The sheer stupidity of your point, in a thread whose subject is about who is more deserving of the playoffs (an 8-8 team or a 11-5 team), is astounding. We're not here to debate whether the Lions would have been impressive this year if they managed to win 8 games or whatever. This thread is about who is more deserving of the playoffs, a 11-5 team or a 8-8 team. I generalized beyond the Chargers-Patriots situation and said that a 11-5 team would always be more deserving than a 8-8 team because this is the NFL, and it's because it's harder to go 11-5 against a weak schedule than it is to go 8-8 against a tough schedule. Last year's Patriots' schedule, one of the toughest in Patriots' history, basically proves this since we could have gone 8-8 with wins over the Jets, Bills, Phins, Browns and Bengals. That shows that going 8-8 is not very difficult. Going 11-5 against an easy schedule is more difficult than that. That's what I said in my original post to Richpats, and I've stuck with that position all throughout here. I've been consistent, unlike yourself.

You clearly have not been consistent. You confused separate discussions, for crying out loud. You were wrong and just couldn't admit it. Now, you have a nice day.

 

[SteveBsFan]

Guys, we can't change the current playoff format just because we're looking at getting snubbed. That's something the Colts and Polian would do. The playoff format as it is... is good. Division winners should take playoff precedent over non-division winners. If we really wanted to make the playoffs, we should have won one more game this year.

Agreed. I thought I was reading the Colts board for a second.

If the Pats don't make it, it just tops the season of bad luck. Bad luck with injuries, then bad luck with competition.

 

[BionicPatriot]

I can see where this thread is growing, and lord knows I have enough of a bad rep buts lets be grown about this people.

The Patriots could have beaten them, they didn't and this is what could happen because of it. I'm not "knocking" them, but lets not cry over spilt milk. It is what it is.

 

[pao]

Blah, I'd like to see one other person agree with you here. Just one.

What's your logic? How did you come up with that example?8-8 against this year's schedule is NOWHERE near as impressive as 11-5 against last year's schedule. That's just beyond absurd. It's one of the stupidest things anyone here has ever posted.

The fact that you wrote that and then you believe my posts are absurd pretty much goes to show how clueless and deranged you are. You're living in a fantasyland, my friend. I'm willing to bet that NO ONE agrees with you on this one, and beyond that certainly no one would characterize the opposing viewpoint as ridiculous, which is what you have been ludicrously claiming.

You tell me on what basis you're making the above claim about records. What's your logic?

Sorry upstater. I have to agree with Deus, not that that helps him any, but you did say "NO ONE". Additionally I find your habit of verbally abusing those that disagree with you tarnishes your credibility tremendously. I am more apt to see your point of view if I am not ignoring wide swathes of your posts due to abuse.

 

[upstater1]

Sorry upstater. I have to agree with Deus, not that that helps him any, but you did say "NO ONE". Additionally I find your habit of verbally abusing those that disagree with you tarnishes your credibility tremendously. I am more apt to see your point of view if I am not ignoring wide swathes of your posts due to abuse.

Pao, what are you agreeing with him on? I doubt you even know.

Is this what you agree with? "8-8 against this year's schedule is more impressive than 11-5 against last year's schedule." I wrote No One else would agree with that. Are you saying that you agree with that? Just wanted to know the state of mind (or lack thereof) of the person I'm writing to.

Let me tell you something else, Pao. You've got a very thin skin. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. The fact is, you threw a shot at me first, and I called you Einstein, then you started crying your eyes out. If you can't take it, then don't take shots at people in the first place. Jeez, what a whiny little baby you are.

 

[upstater1]

Deus Irae: And again with the personal attacks. Furthermore, I've neither misrepresented nor falsified anything you've posted here. However, it's been interesting watching you lose your mind after berating me with such a gem as "when you proclaim arguments ridiculous, absurd, and illegitimate." Pots, Kettles and the like are amused worldwide.


You misrepresent and falsify the nature of the discussion in each and every post. I'll give you a quick example. We're here discussing whether a 11-5 record is more deserving than a 8-8 record, against ANY schedule. I said it is. You said that's silly. Then I asked you to show me how/why. Then you changed the whole basis of the argument by saying last year's Patriots team would have achieved less by winning 11 games (I'm assuming you're referring to the fact they had Tom Brady) over an 8 win team by this year's team. That's a whole other argument, one which could be even made in the case of, say, Miami having the most impressive season in all of football this year, as opposed to their 1 win season last year. But we're not discussing that. We're not talking about the relative strength of the Patriots last year and the Patriots this year. We're talking about achieving 11 wins against a weak schedule being more/or less deserving or impressive than achieving 8 wins against a tough schedule. That's the discussion. But in your wormy ways you try to get out of it, then you cry that I'm being too personal, as though I know you somehow in the flesh and blood, as though I know you as anything but the Deus Irae guy on Patsfan who makes ****amamie arguments.

You clearly have not been consistent. You confused separate discussions, for crying out loud. You were wrong and just couldn't admit it. Now, you have a nice day.

I just cut and pasted my argument below since it's the model of consistency unlike your prevarications:

This thread is about who is more deserving of the playoffs, a 11-5 team or a 8-8 team. I generalized beyond the Chargers-Patriots situation and said that a 11-5 team would always be more deserving than a 8-8 team because this is the NFL, tough games every week, and because it's harder to go 11-5 against a weak schedule than it is to go 8-8 against a tough schedule. Last year's Patriots' schedule, one of the toughest in Patriots' history, basically proves this since we could have gone 8-8 with wins over the Jets, Bills, Phins, Browns and Bengals. That shows that going 8-8 is not very difficult. Going 11-5 against an easy schedule is more difficult than that. That's what I said in my original post to Richpats, and I've stuck with that position all throughout here. I've been consistent, unlike yourself.

How is this inconsistent?

 

[pao]

Pao, what are you agreeing with him on? I doubt you even know.

Is this what you agree with? "8-8 against this year's schedule is more impressive than 11-5 against last year's schedule." I wrote No One else would agree with that. Are you saying that you agree with that? Just wanted to know the state of mind (or lack thereof) of the person I'm writing to.

Let's agree to disagree on that one, I'm not going to get into this part of the discussion because it's too hard to pinpoint what exactly you are arguing. I agree with Deus that you are meshing the arguments and now are cherry picking one specific statement as though it was your only premise and or the only example cited.

Let me tell you something else, Pao. You've got a very thin skin. You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

Show me where I dish it out (be careful, you may have missed the self deprecation...intended to take any sting out of anything I "dished" out). Please. And also show me where I can't take it. Please.

The fact is, you threw a shot at me first, and I called you Einstein, then you started crying your eyes out. If you can't take it, then don't take shots at people in the first place. Jeez, what a whiny little baby you are.

LOL. Exhibits A & B. You may just be the most abusive person I've encountered on a Message Board. That's not crying, my friend, that's an observation.

 

[pao]

For those still interested...
I think it is fine that an 8-8 division champion goes to the playoffs, it doesn't happen that often, and may not even happen this year. Once there I think the seeding COULD be based on record. Any thoughts?

 

[upstater1]

Let's agree to disagree on that one, I'm not going to get into this part of the discussion because it's too hard to pinpoint what exactly you are arguing. I agree with Deus that you are meshing the arguments and now are cherry picking one specific statement as though it was your only premise and or the only example cited.

Show me where I dish it out (be careful, you may have missed the self deprecation...intended to take any sting out of anything I "dished" out). Please. And also show me where I can't take it. Please.
LOL. Exhibits A & B. You may just be the most abusive person I've encountered on a Message Board. That's not crying, my friend, that's an observation.

OK, I was wrong. But I'm astounded. There is actually another person out there who thinks an 8-8 record against this year's Patriot schedule is more impressive than a 11-5 record against last year's Patriot schedule.

I'm going to repeat this just for fun: you believe an 8-8 record against this year's schedule (against the NFC West and AFC West, absolutely horrid divisions) is better than an 11-5 record against last year's schedule (against the NFC East and AFC North). Is that right? Am I getting this right? I'm only asking four times because it's hard to believe.

As for the rest, I initially wrote that I was wrong to Miguel. I got my math wrong. You responded by saying I have a hard time admitting I was wrong. I responded by congratulating you (sarcastically, I admit) for being more ready to admit you were wrong, because--apparently--you admitted you were wrong after I admitted I was wrong, and that made you faster to admit you were wrong somehow, so congratulations. That's the post that you initially claimed to be an insult. So, sorry for your thin skin. If you're going to say someone can't admit they're wrong, then at least be man enough not to cry when they congratulate you sarcastically for your observation.

I've admitted I was wrong twice in this thread (about the Patriots' schedule % this year) and about there not be anyone else who would buy the ludicrous theory that 8-8 against this year's schedule is better than 11-5 against last year's. Wrong twice. I'm not going to admit I'm wrong about anything else because I'm right about the main part here, and let me repeat this again just for fun: the very idea that an 8-8 record against this year's Patriot schedule is better than a 11-5 against last year's schedule is just preposterous. I'm not wrong about that. I'm 99.9% certain.

Congratulations in your ****amamie beliefs.

 

[neuronet]

Guys, we can't change the current playoff format just because we're looking at getting snubbed. That's something the Colts and Polian would do.

And how. Next people will start whining that we missed the playoffs because of a coin flip. I expect this kind of thing on a Chargers or Colts board, but we are the New England Patriots.

 

[Miguel]

Here's why I do not have a problem with maybe a 8-8 Chargers making it to the playoffs and maybe a 11-5 Patriots not making it.

I believe that if the Pats had played the NFC South instead of the NFC West they would have went 3-1 instead of 4-0 against the NFC West making their record 10-6. I also believe that if the Chargers had played the NFC West instead of the NFC South they would have went 3-1 instead of 1-3 making their record 10-6. With both teams having a record of 10-6 the first tiebreaker is HTH. Chargers won.

The current playoff system is imperfect. But IMO it is less imperfect than the alternatives. So I am not going to complain about it when it does not work in the Patriots' favor.

 

[pao]

Here's why I do not have a problem with maybe a 8-8 Chargers making it to the playoffs and maybe a 11-5 Patriots not making it.

I believe that if the Pats had played the NFC South instead of the NFC West they would have went 3-1 instead of 4-0 against the NFC West making their record 10-6. I also believe that if the Chargers had played the NFC West instead of the NFC South they would have went 3-1 instead of 1-3 making their record 10-6. With both teams having a record of 10-6 the first tiebreaker is HTH. Chargers won.

The current playoff system is imperfect. But IMO it is less imperfect than the alternatives. So I am not going to complain about it when it does not work in the Patriots' favor.

Great post. Well put.

 

[upstater1]

Here's why I do not have a problem with maybe a 8-8 Chargers making it to the playoffs and maybe a 11-5 Patriots not making it.

I believe that if the Pats had played the NFC South instead of the NFC West they would have went 3-1 instead of 4-0 against the NFC West making their record 10-6. I also believe that if the Chargers had played the NFC West instead of the NFC South they would have went 3-1 instead of 1-3 making their record 10-6. With both teams having a record of 10-6 the first tiebreaker is HTH. Chargers won.

The current playoff system is imperfect. But IMO it is less imperfect than the alternatives. So I am not going to complain about it when it does not work in the Patriots' favor.

The Patriots still played 6 games against the AFC East (a tougher division) and 4 games against the AFC West. Let's look at the gimme games from this 10 game schedule: Oakland, KC. Now, compare that to the Chargers who played 4 games against the AFC East and 6 games against the AFC West: they had 4 gimme games against the AFC West.

So, if you're going to account for the difference in either team's NFC schedule (the Chargers had a tougher NFC schedule), you also have to look at their AFC difference and realize that the Patriots had a tougher AFC schedule by two games. Say the Patriots had played KC and Oakland again, would they still be 10-6? I bet they would beat both those teams again. So, I'd take their record to 11-5 (trading a Buffalo win and a Jets loss for two wins over KC and Oakland).

Again, New England finishes ahead of the Chargers. You can't only look at the NFC difference without accounting for the AFC difference.

I'm really not a stickler for this one way or the other, but I do feel the Patriots record this year was more impressive even considering the schedules.

As I said earlier, the real debate in this thread is to whether the NFL is going to go to 7 playoff teams per conference, because the last time the division issue was raised, there was no debate about breaking the divisions apart. It was all about adding a 7th team.