10 things we learned

[PatsandTrojans55]

Any idea what we could have had to go from #10 to #15 ?

Supposedly (not for sure off the Top of my head).

They wanted: 2nd 2008, 4th 2008, 2nd 2009 or 1st 2009, 3rd 2008.

Chiefs offered: 3rd 2008, 5th 2008, 2nd 2009. They lowballed because they felt Albert's was possibly going to be there and they had plenty of 3rds to give away.

PT55

 

[BelichickFan]

Supposedly (not for sure off the Top of my head).

They wanted: 2nd 2008, 4th 2008, 2nd 2009 or 1st 2009, 3rd 2008.

Chiefs offered: 3rd 2008, 5th 2008, 2nd 2009. They lowballed because they felt Albert's was possibly going to be there and they had plenty of 3rds to give away.

Man would I have loved to get a piece of that KC 2009 #1. That could be a very high pick again. I would have taken that, alone, in a second, to drop 5 spots.

 

[PatsandTrojans55]

Wow PT55 you are delusional. DRC a smokescreen? LMAO sure buddy. The two guys they were targeting in round 1 were Mayo and DRC. They needed a stud ILB and a #1 corner. They chose the ILB route probably because it was a desperate need, and guys like Mayo dont come around too often. His character you couldnt pass up. Please just stop bashing DRC because you are wrong, he was the #1 corner on the pats board and if we didnt get Mayo we would have drafted him.

To BradyToMoss yea i was a little bummed they went ILB instead of CB, but im very happy with Mayo. Hes gunna be great for us, and i think with the new changes to defensive signals and defensive players being miked up Mayo is the perfect guy to implement that with.

Briz,
Prove it.
How do you know he was the #1 corner on the board? If your using the reports by (Smith and Schefter) then I already explained that so try another route.

If DRC was a better value at 7 then Mayo, then how did Mayo become a better value at #10?
They weren't drafting corner in the first under no circumstances they had too many options and it sounds like your saying they took Mayo out of a "Need desperation move"? I know you don't think they passed on DRC to draft a need in the 1st do you?

By the way, I never bashed DRC once. I watched alot of film on him and felt just like they did that he was overrated and not worth an early 1st over other players at the position especially Cason.

But Hey,
Believe what you must. No problem to me.

PT55

 

[PatsandTrojans55]

Man would I have loved to get a piece of that KC 2009 #1. That could be a very high pick again. I would have taken that, alone, in a second, to drop 5 spots.

They would have if a guarantee of Mayo would have been there but it was actually #16 and Detriot was at #15 at the time. They didn't have anybody else rated as high as Mayo on the board to pass. They think this kid is that good.

PT55

 

[scout]

PatsandTrojan55, thanks again. I really liked this draft. I am hoping for Mayo to have an immediate impact on defense, at least in the rotation. Slater to pick up where he left off and be a great special teamer (any duel roles ?). Maybe you can shed some light on Crable's and O'Conner's potential. Was Wheatley the #2 CB on the Pats board?

 

[SunnyDenmark]

Need vs Value:

- This is a misunderstood concept, and Felger is always distorting it

- Need influences draft strategy, no question, but the Pats never let it be the primary determinent.

- Value comes first, and I think they view Need as a tiebreaker, along with Rare. At a given drafting position, they first look at who's got the right value at that spot. From that list, if they see a player that also meets a need, bingo.

- If they don't see a player that meets a need but suspect that they will get that combination of value & need at a lower draft point, they'll try to trade down and gain an extra pick.

- If they can't trade down, they'll take the value pick, even if it's not a need.

- In round one, they had 2 players they loved: Mayo and DRC. Both represented excellent value at 10, along with probably 2 or 3 other guys at other positions. They had need at both LB and CB, so that narrowed the pool to those 2. Because they felt Mayo was really rare, that's what led to his selection.

- Notice they didn't jump at Mayo at #7, because the value wasn't there at 7. In the upper first round, a few slots either way is huge. They knew that they would be overpaying both in dollars and in potential picks if they did that, and they were right. New Orleans agreed.

- If they had been drafting at 3 or 5, and were unable to make a deal down that had the right value, chances are they would have taken Dorsey because he would have represented the better value pick.

- In the 3rd round, O'Connell represented the best value, along with being a very rare athlete. Value and rarity trumped Need in that case.

So you can see from those examples that Value is really the driver, but Need plays into the final selection.

Very well explained post (value vs. need). I have made bold the O'Connell line because there is also a great NEED for a solid backup QB on this team. Cassell has not shown that he is this (yet). It was telling that last year one game Brady was rested - Guteirrez relieved Brady while Cassell stayed on the bench. Pats have been lucky that Brady has been an ironman. 1 decent backup QB is needed on most teams , just as now 2 good RB's in the league. (and 'cousin' Vinny may actually really be retired this year - sorry 'graduated' I believe is the politically correct euphemism).

 

[BRiZ]

Briz,
Prove it.

I dont need to prove it i know, i had Mayo pegged back in Febuary-March and knew the pats were going to take him, long before kiper and mayock got wind of him and long before the pats even brought him in to work him out. Go read the ESPN pats board and you will see. The Pats were coming out of this draft with Mayo or DRC. They needed both a ILB and a CB. They chose to go with ILB. Why would they need to create a smokescreen they could have gotten anyone they wanted at 7? Any ILB or CB they wanted? You theory is nothing but speculation and your attempt to cover up your stupidity on the issue. There was no need for a smokescreen, you are wrong. Mayo and DRC were the best ILB and CB in this draft, they would have taken either one of them.

How do you know he was the #1 corner on the board? If your using the reports by (Smith and Schefter) then I already explained that so try another route.

BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST CB IN THE DRAFT. The pats can spot good football players and DRC is a great athlete.

If DRC was a better value at 7 then Mayo, then how did Mayo become a better value at #10?

I never said DRC was a better value at 7, they had their board ranked #1 Mayo, #2 DRC. If Mayo was gone they draft DRC.

They weren't drafting corner in the first under no circumstances they had too many options and it sounds like your saying they took Mayo out of a "Need desperation move"? I know you don't think they passed on DRC to draft a need in the 1st do you?

They werent drafted a CB in round one under no circumstance? Wow you are delusional. They would have drafted a CB if they couldnt get Mayo, there was no other linebackers they were gunna take. They were not going to take a olineman they brought in 30 1st round prospects for private workouts and visits and all 30 of them were defensive players (mostly CB's and LB's) except for 1, Darren McFadden. They were taking a LB or CB in round 1.

By the way, I never bashed DRC once. I watched alot of film on him and felt just like they did that he was overrated and not worth an early 1st over other players at the position especially Cason.

Well you were wrong.

But Hey,
Believe what you must. No problem to me.

PT55

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[14thDragon]

(1) Link? I didn't see this.
(6) Regardless of sales level, Cassel is a UFA at the end of the year, and there's no way in hell they're franchising him. It'll be interesting to see how this situation sorts itself out.

Trade Cassel for what? A gatorade cooler? Some clean towels? An eight round conditional draft pick, the condition being there be an eigth round again?

I agree he is gonna be gone before the end of training camp. But I do not think the Patriots will get anything for him. Perhaps he can turn coach. He has the holding the clip board thing down.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

1) DRC was the Patriots top Cornerback.
2) PatsandTrojans55 isn't the source we thought he was.
3) Mayo was their Top LB and not Rivers like some thought
4) Sedrick Ellis interest was a smokescreen to create interest in a trade.
5) Jets wanted Chris Long. And, they didn't love McFadden like some of us including me thought.
6) Patriots aren't sold on Cassel at all. Thank God!
7) The Patriots do draft for need.
8) There will be a big competition in Trainning Camp for LB's to make the team.
9) Size isn't important to the Patriots when it comes to CB's, they prefer quicker guys with a great C.O.D.
10) ESPN has the worst coverage of the Draft. NFL Network was far better,

We you not the guy who jumped all over that guy who posted just before the draft that he heard that N.O. was going to trade up and you called him an idiot?

I am almost sure it was you...

I think maybe you should learn some things,like having a little more tolerance even if you did not believe it at that time,I think you owe the guy an apology whoever he is...

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Trade Cassel for what? A gatorade cooler? Some clean towels? An eight round conditional draft pick, the condition being there be an eigth round again?

I agree he is gonna be gone before the end of training camp. But I do not think the Patriots will get anything for him. Perhaps he can turn coach. He has the holding the clip board thing down.

I think the term is a bit vulgar but Casell is garbage as a starting QB - More of a lifetime 3rd stringer IMO for the few times I have seen him,Being with Brady that long guarantees nothing,Brady is a rarity and you just can't teach talent,I doubt Cassell will ever be anything in this league but more like a Joey Harrington at best.

 

[DaBruinz]

1) Was referenced on Draft day by both Michael Smith and Adam Schefter. Each said that DRC was their Top CB and did actually consider drafting him, which surprised the hell out of me.
6) I'm not so sure that Cassel is on the team coming out of Trainning Camp. They won't carry 4 QB's, and they like Gutierrez alot as well. I most likely see a trade of Cassel somewhere, possibly the Bears.
7) This draft they paid huge attention to drafting for need.

7)This draft paid a huge attention to VALUE. Since you missed Belichick saying it for the umpteenth time, NEED is part of the value equation. Its not the SOLE part, but it is a part. Period.

6) I think its a 50/50 shot that Cassel is on the team. One of the things is that he knows the system. That being said, I think that the Bears would be a great place to trade Cassel to. Of course, that is only if Gutierrez proves he can handle the #2 spot. Otherwise the Pats cut Gut and have him on the practice squad.

1) Michael Smith and Adam Schefter? I am fairly certain that their "contacts" in the Pats organization are the equivalent of John Clayton's.

Unless I hear it from Reiss or Breer or SMY, I don't believe anything that Smith or Schefter have to say in regards to the Pats.

 

[jeffbiologist]

10- NFL network was SO much better than ESPN...not as much into the talking heads, better graphics, no Chris Berman....way better.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

Think of the money they saved and other options they picked up.

Also, just for the icing on the cake here.
Ask yourself, If DRC was a good enough value for them at #7 (as Smith and Schefter) suggested when they said if they stay here. (by the way they didn't mention Mayo at #7).

So if DRC was a value for them at #7, shouldn't he be more a value now at #10 with extra picks an perhaps $4 million dollars cheaper? How does Mayo become a better value at #10 than DRC in this case if what Smith and Schefter say is to be believed?

Answer: He wasn't the Target hense: SMOKESCREEN

Remember, BB was going to pick Crable at #69 and got a call from San Diego in the 3rd. So he took the trade down got the extra picks and still took his man with what he believed to be better value at #78.

Shouldn't the same concept apply to #7 or #10?

PT55

I think it is AWESOME that PT55 can use the idea of smokescreens (that i suggested in the Long vs. Ellis thread and which he vehemently denied) to back away from his wrong predictions. He must know all about the inner workings of the FO, it's definitely just a coincidence that, in true Nostradamus fashion, he has predicted nothing. At all. Ever.

 

[mike100915]

7)This draft paid a huge attention to VALUE. Since you missed Belichick saying it for the umpteenth time, NEED is part of the value equation. Its not the SOLE part, but it is a part. Period.

6) I think its a 50/50 shot that Cassel is on the team. One of the things is that he knows the system. That being said, I think that the Bears would be a great place to trade Cassel to. Of course, that is only if Gutierrez proves he can handle the #2 spot. Otherwise the Pats cut Gut and have him on the practice squad.

1) Michael Smith and Adam Schefter? I am fairly certain that their "contacts" in the Pats organization are the equivalent of John Clayton's.

Unless I hear it from Reiss or Breer or SMY, I don't believe anything that Smith or Schefter have to say in regards to the Pats.

7) Obviously your not that smart if you don't realize that this draft for the Patriots was about need. Of course Belichick is going to say value, when in reality he doesn't want to admit they drafted for need. Only value pick was O'Connell. Mayo, Crable, Ruud, Wheatley and Wilhite were all for need.

1) You must not have the NFL Network, because Schefter is fed all the inside info. He is almost never wrong. Also, he is very good when it comes to the Patriots, he broke the Seau signing and also the Adalius Thomas and the Randy Moss trade.

 

[Deus Irae]

7) Obviously your not that smart if you don't realize that this draft for the Patriots was about need. Of course Belichick is going to say value, when in reality he doesn't want to admit they drafted for need. Only value pick was O'Connell. Mayo, Crable, Ruud, Wheatley and Wilhite were all for need.

1) You must not have the NFL Network, because Schefter is fed all the inside info. He is almost never wrong. Also, he is very good when it comes to the Patriots, he broke the Seau signing and also the Adalius Thomas and the Randy Moss trade.

To be fair to DaBruinz, Belichick has stated that need is part of the 'formula' that determines value.

 

[mmasterkillah]

I love fake "insiders"

 

[mike100915]

To be fair to DaBruinz, Belichick has stated that need is part of the 'formula' that determines value.

Listen, the Patriots would never admit it but they do draft for need. Just look at this draft, or the 03 draft with Ty Warren. The Patriots don't simply take the best player avilable like you may think. They too just like the rest of the NFL draft for need. It's not a bad thing either.

 

[bakes781]

I like the Mayo & Wheatley picks. It's the drafting of a QB in the 3rd that I have a problem with. 3rd round selections are expected to be starters by their 2nd or 3rd years. And that's because they're PAID like ones, so if O'Connell doesn't see the field by 2010 then guess what? He gets cut because he'll be too much of a salary hit.

 

[DaBruinz]

7) Obviously your not that smart if you don't realize that this draft for the Patriots was about need. Of course Belichick is going to say value, when in reality he doesn't want to admit they drafted for need. Only value pick was O'Connell. Mayo, Crable, Ruud, Wheatley and Wilhite were all for need.

Obviously, I am a helluva smarter than you think since I understand the value equation better than you do.

While Mayo, Crable, Ruud, Wheatley and Wilhite fill a NEED, they were not drafted SOLELY based on need. That is what YOU fail to comprehend. Drafting for NEED means that you take whatever is available at that position at the time you draft. If the Pats had done that, they would NOT have traded down and still gotten Mayo. They wouldn't have drafted Wheatley. They wouldn't have moved up to get Wilhite. Those are NOT need moves. Those are VALUE moves.

1) You must not have the NFL Network, because Schefter is fed all the inside info. He is almost never wrong. Also, he is very good when it comes to the Patriots, he broke the Seau signing and also the Adalius Thomas and the Randy Moss trade.

Schefter has been wrong MANY times. Also, since you missed it, Schefter was down next to the podium. So, the only "inside" information" he fed about the picks is the information he announced prior to Gene Washington getting up on the podium. Its really a neat trick and makes it look like Schefter was providing information. But when you stopped to see where he was, you realized that he was just getting the information from the guy who had the card prior to giving the information to Gene Washington.

If you'd like, we can start naming all the signings that Schefter claimed would happen that never materialized. The list is extremely long.

OH, and Schefter didn't break the news on Seau. That was actually reported by the San Diego Tribune 2 days prior to Schefter saying anything.

 

[DaBruinz]

Listen, the Patriots would never admit it but they do draft for need. Just look at this draft, or the 03 draft with Ty Warren. The Patriots don't simply take the best player avilable like you may think. They too just like the rest of the NFL draft for need. It's not a bad thing either.

You clearly don't understand how the Patriots draft. AT ALL.

The Patriots draft best VALUE available. That VALUE comes from a 3 part equation. The three parts of the equation are Physical Attributes, Intangibles, and NEED. It is NOT best player available. Nor is it SOLELY drafting for need. Its a combination.

OH, and, btw, The Raiders didn't draft for need when they drafted McFadden. They drafted BPA.

You want to talk about 2003 and Ty Warren. Lets do so. Ty Warren was the #1 player on the Pats draft chart that year. He wasn't a true need because they drafted him as a DE, not a NT. The Patriots moved UP to draft Warren. That is drafting for VALUE. OH, since you don't remember, the Pats still had Bobby Hamilton as their starting LDE at the time.