Welcome to PatsFans.com

1 of my biggest issues with Obama's healthcare Reform

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by lostjumper, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. lostjumper

    lostjumper Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    I've copied a section of anlysis from John David Lewis, A professor at Duke. He does a great job of explaining the Legalese contained in the Healthcare bill. He quotes the bill verbatim, and then offers his analysis.

    It will be much cheaper to pay the 8% tax than for a company to pay for private health insurance. Meaning, in just a couple of years almost everyone will be forced to go with the government option when their company cancels private health insurance. The government will have a monopoly on health insurance, and the 8% tax won't be enough to cover costs, meaning the government will go into debt even more. Other things to consider are the hundreds of thousands of employees in private insurance that will be jobless, and the loss of billions in tax revenue that the government currently collects. It just doesn't add up.
     
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,872
    Likes Received:
    278
    Ratings:
    +735 / 17 / -19

    #24 Jersey

    That's pretty much what's been said and those saying it are accused of being crazy conspirators. Not only are medicare and medicaid way over estimates, they also underpay hospitals dramatically. When the flow of events happens as you describe and we're the rolls of "medicare" expand, hospitals will be further hit. At which point we bust the budget even more or limit procedures. It's a perfectly logical flow of events, not some crazies with tin foil hats.

    This is why we should START healthcare reform by trying to lower costs, through tort reform and allowing interstate insurance. And see where that gets costs first. Until we contain costs the numbers don't add up and we can't make this big new plan hoping costs will be reduced, it needs to be shown first then we can look at the numbers.
     
  3. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Yeah but right now employers who don't offer health plans don't have to pay any sort of tax at all. This enormous pressure you're talking about should have chased all business insurance plans away years ago.

    The reason companies don't get rid of it as it stands is because they can provide something to their employees at a cheaper cost than the individuals themselves can get on the open market. They can 'pay' their employees $300 a month in insurance benefits with it only costing them $150. the 8% tax is just one more reason to not cancel insurance plans, along with the crappy production a company would get from having a bunch of suddenly uncovered employees.
     
  4. lostjumper

    lostjumper Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    That makes no sense. If Company A offers health insurance to their employees at a cost = to 20% of their payroll, and Company B just pays the 8% tax, Company A is at a severe disadvantage. Either they are going to have to charge more for their product or service, or try to drastically reduce costs in other areas. Or, they can just dump their health insurance and pay the 8% to level the playing field, while their employees get government healthcare. Isn't it obvious what Company A will eventually have to do? If the government runs health insurance, there will be no private health insurance.
     
  5. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Yeah, and for the last 100 years company A could have struggled along providing insurance while company B didn't. At least under this bill company B has to pay something.

    According to your thinking there's no reason at all for company sponsored insurance to have ever come into existence.

    Keep in mind that the penalty does not get anyone insurance, its a fine so to speak. Like in MA, if you don't have insurance you pay extra on your state taxes, that doesn't get you insurance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
  6. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,286
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    I'm going to assume with confidence that you are not an entrepreneur and know almost nothing about the pressures of running a small business. Just saying.
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,763
    Likes Received:
    272
    Ratings:
    +490 / 20 / -17

    Not sure of his qualifications: John David Lewis -- http://www.classicalideals.com/cv.htm

    Seems to me he's reading only a piece of the bill, which may be a mistake on his part or an act of dishonesty. The section he's referring to is called "SEC. 313. EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS IN LIEU OF COVERAGE. "

    In sec. 311, the phrase "Contribution in lieu of coverage" is defined as follows:

    House Health Care BIll (Pages 101-150)

    "Beginning with Y2, if an employee declines such offer but otherwise obtains coverage in an Exchange-participating health benefits plan (other than by reason of being covered by family coverage as a spouse or dependent of the primary insured), the employer shall make a timely contribution to the Health Insurance Exchange with respect to each such employee in accordance with section 313."

    It appears to say that an employer makes a contribution even for employees who are on their, e.g., spouse's insurance, and that's what the section in question is referring to. The section is not giving an employer a discount on the public plan (which cost has not yet been set).

    My guess is it will work like company-provided health insurance plans work today. The employer pays most of the cost of healthcare, and the employee chooses the plan he wants (at different out-of-pocket costs) based on his personal situation.

    In any event, estimates show that an employer pays about 8% of compensation in the form of health benefits:

    How much of my wages goes to health care? - Gut Check- msnbc.com

    Bob McTeer, former Federal Reserve bank president:
    Bob McTeer

    Tell me about it. I’m not a health-care or health- insurance expert as are several of my colleagues at the National Center for Policy Analysis, including its founder and president, John Goodman. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, nearly 8 percent of employee compensation is in the form of health benefits. That is the percentage of employee compensation employers pay. If you add the employee portion of insurance premiums, co-pays and non-covered health care expenses to that, the total would likely be close to 10 percent.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    21,102
    Likes Received:
    413
    Ratings:
    +903 / 14 / -7

    Well done Patters.

    Once again, people, this stuff is

    1) NESTED, and
    2) ALWAYS dependent on the definitions.

    The guy playing cut-and-paste quoted above has either willfully or ignorantly missed the point: These contributions are in relation to an employee voluntarily forgoing coverage.

    Still: This is WAY better than where we've been lately (the nyah nyah nyah nyah level of discourse.)

    If this is what's going on nationwide this mess may just turn into a gigantic civics lesson. (Okay that's a bit much, but at least it may serve that purpose for a few.)

    PFnV
     
  9. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,880
    Likes Received:
    63
    Ratings:
    +186 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    Not necessarily, it will depend on the salary of the employees (on average) and the break even point. Suppose you own a business where the employees are highly paid (relative to the national average) say $75K on average. 8% is $6000 per year or $500 per month. If the cost of the health plan is less than $500 per month (and for an individual it is)or less, it's cheaper to give coverage.
    If your employees are lower paid, say $25K per year, an 8% tax is $2000 per year or $160 per month and is cheaper than providing insurance. I haven't seen this mentioned but it is rational behavior.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,250
    Likes Received:
    255
    Ratings:
    +988 / 2 / -9

    There is a reason that these "Old White People" yell and scream at the Town Halls, they have watched the Left Wing Democrat's and the Rabid Bush Haters do the same thing in the not to long ago past and they saw that by adopting the Left Wing Type Of Protesting (yell, confront, rowdy) that it would draw attention and that attention would eventually bring RESULTS, the Cops that gave Rodney King his thrashing can verify that one, Rodney got 4 million and the cops went to jail.

    THESE OLD "WHITE BASTARDS" ARE TO OLD TO TIP OVER CARS OR STEAL TV'S BUT THEY ARE MAKING THEMSELVES HEARD (they are as american as apple pie)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,746
    Likes Received:
    282
    Ratings:
    +711 / 20 / -30

    Find it interesting that those already benefitting from socialized health care, medicare, are making the most noise.. particularly as these folks have the most to gain with the closing of the "donut hole"...

    Harry you are one of the biggest critics of this bill, but one of the beneficiaries of socialized medicine...

    Most do not understand what is being proposed, and their fears have been preyed on....
     
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,250
    Likes Received:
    255
    Ratings:
    +988 / 2 / -9

    They'll get rid of Medicare then I'll die on a gurney in the hallway waiting for my Socialist Communist Obama Doctor to examine me.

    I went into a Hospital last week to get some blood work sent to my Doctor, I handed them my Medicare card, they took my blood and I was out of there in less than an hour, Obama's "Cuban Sh!t" will strip me of Medicare and I'll die "WAITING" Obama should "Repair" health care and it should then be put before the people and every word in it should be explained even if it takes a year to read it, then and only then should it be made law.
    HOW MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA KNOW WHATS HIDDEN IN THE OBAMA SH!T, WHY DOES HE WANT IT RUSHED THROUGH WITHOUT LETTING ME KNOW WHATS IN IT WHY ARE SO MANY INTELLIGENT WELL EDUCATED OLD WHITE BASTARDS AGAINST IT..........:confused:
     
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,746
    Likes Received:
    282
    Ratings:
    +711 / 20 / -30

    They are not touching medicare.. keep listening to Glenn Beck and the rest of the right wing mediots... nothing is changing for us older dudes...
     
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Harry!

    You use Medicare?!?:eek:

    Socialist Commie Bastid!
     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,746
    Likes Received:
    282
    Ratings:
    +711 / 20 / -30

    Harry does not like to share his "public option"...
     
  16. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,738
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Kid, I've been self employed for the past 10 years. I know almost everything about the pressures of running a small business.
     
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    42,746
    Likes Received:
    282
    Ratings:
    +711 / 20 / -30

    This thread was linked on Rush this AM.. he would be so proud of his boyz....
     
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    41,250
    Likes Received:
    255
    Ratings:
    +988 / 2 / -9

    health care needs to be repaired, the american people have the right to know how it is being repaired, if this president and his backers want this bill "rushed through" why does he want it rushed through, why are so many americans against this bill, why don't qualified people from both sides study this bill then fully explain it to the people before it is signed, would anybody buy a used car or a house under obama's "hurry up and sign it" crap.

    I use medicare just like millions of other old anti socialists do and i would love free health care but during my life i have found that if something is free it's no friggin good, the present health care needs fixing and the people should fully understand how it is being fixed before the papers are signed, we know nothing about what is buried in this obama bill and god help the sick americans if the likes of those grinning filthy scum, pelosi/reid have anything to do with the health needs of the american peole.

    Fix fix fix the american health care system don't let this far left wing obama kid turn our hospitals into cuban butcher shops.

    Drunks, bums, junkies and poor people today get the best medical treatment in the world, if a bum is picked up off the street with a heart attack in america he gets the best doctors and health care in this world.

    Fix health care but keep those filthy politicians away from your doctor and your family.

    If obama's plan goes through barney frank and rat face specter won't be using it, does that tell us anything.

    Give to mental health or i'll kill you

    I'm going out and sit in my garage now.
     
  19. godef

    godef In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,117
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    1. Most people already pay a share of company provided healthcare. You'll just be paying Peter instead of Paul.

    2. A monopoly implies profit. Profit is a major reason why healthcare costs so much these days. Today, Medicare is far more cost efficient than private healthcare. Large PHCs have been buying out their smaller competitors and dumping the high risk enrollees they inherit to increase profits. So tell me again about monopoly.

    3. How do you know the 8% won't be enough? Is that in the bill or is it just more rhetoric from the right?

    4. How many jobs were lost when the government dropped the F-22 program? A bad program does not justify maintaining it's employee ranks because it ultimately damages the GDP via wasted production, which would ultimately impact the economy more than the unemployment. If perhaps the PHC wasn't so concerned with maximizing profit, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. The banks are already in a mess but nobody seems to worry about those employees. And PHC will not entirely disappear; the more cost efficient of those will survive, and what's left will no longer suck up to Wall St because they would need to be much more customer competitive.
     
  20. godef

    godef In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,117
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    If a company pays half the 20% healthcare costs, that would leave you paying 10%. 10% is more than 8%.
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>