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-   -   Are we better than the 2005 SB team? (http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/28209-we-better-than-2005-sb-team.html)

mgteich 12-23-2005 02:41 PM

Are we better than the 2005 SB team?
 
First, I believe that Indy and Cinci are better than anything we faced last year.
------------------------------------------------------------
We are playing without Light, Koppen, Harrison and Gay.

That being said, I believe that we are finally as good a team as the team that won the Super Bowl last year.
------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
Overall - better

THE OFFENSIVE LINE
Sure we've missed Light and Andruzzi. However, Mankins, Kayzur, and Ashworth had made up for the loss, as well as the play of Hochstein at center. The run blocking hasn't been as good, but the pass-blocking has been awesome. The tight ends continue to be a great help as blockers.

THE RECEIVERS
I've been disappointed, although given the YAC's I shouldn't be. I miss David Patten. However, as we go into playoffs, it is good to have all three tight ends and Faulk healthy. They are able receivers. As a whole, the receivers are as good as last year. Branch and Givens have been fine. Hey, I even like Dwight and Davis. Brown and Johnson haven't done much.

THE REST
Brady is haven't another pro-bowl year, and Dillon and Faulk are solid.
----------------------------------------------------------------

DEFENSE
Overall - better
The front seven are the best.

DEFENSIVE LINE
I've been disappointed in the lack of depth. Klecko, Wright and Hill haven't done much, However, the play of our front three #1 picks has been outstanding. Green has been fine as a valuable, well-paid role player.

LINEBACKERS
Many cry and moan about losing Ted Johnson and Phifer. Not me! I'm very well pleased with Colvin outside and Vrabel in. Our four linebackers plus our front three are as good as it gets. And Beisel and Chad Brown are decent backups, providing good depth.

DEFENSIVE BACKS
This is obviously a weakness, but probably no worse than last year. Hawkins has made a huge difference. Hobbs is this year's Gay, and as good as Gay at this time last year. Poteat is better than last year, and Sanders also contributes.
--------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL TEAMS
Overall - better

Vinitieri is healthier. Miller is as good as last year.

Our coverage teams are much better. I'm not sure who is making the difference, but a healthy Chatham, Chad Brown and Beisel sure help.

Our return game isn't much, but it is as good as last year. Dwight was an excellent addition.
-----------------------------------------------------

INTANGIBLES
a work in progress

We'll see. Bruschi seems to have the defense in shape, and Brady the offense. I think we miss both Charlie and Romeo. The defensive backield is almost back, after many weeks of shifting strong safeties each weak. Most importantly, everyone is healthy.
----------------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE

We have about as much chance to go all the way as we did in previous years. To validate this view, go back to postings and media at this time in each of our Super Bowl winning trips. I think you'll find that this team has FEWER deficiencies and FEWER question marks than in past teams.

The real question marks are with our opposition. How good ARE the Colts and the Bengals and even the Bears?

skri65 12-23-2005 02:57 PM

Hawkins is by no means a replacement for harrison. Agreed, I think he will do better than stone, but he has yet to really prove himself. Give him the rest of the season to prove himself. Asante has not been playing well. Lets wait and see, but i cant agree that our secondary is nearly as stable as it was last year.

Brownfan80 12-23-2005 02:58 PM

Interesting post, but I'll disagree on one minor point. You group Brown's production in with Johnson's.. which if you look at the stats is completely unfair.

Troy Brown is actually having a year that's just as productive as 2003.

His stats are: 36 catches for 435 yards at 12.1 per catch and a long of 71 with 2 TDs.

Johnsons stats for 2005:
4 catches for 67 yards at 16.8 per catch and a long of 55 with 1 TD.

As you can see, all but 12 of his yards came on one catch, leaving the other 3 catches at 4 yards a pop.

As you can tell just from the numbers, those two guys shouldn't be lumped together. Honestly Davis is more in line with Johnson by the numbers, and Dwight is closer to that group than is Brown. Brown is our third leading reciever this season.

mosi 12-23-2005 02:59 PM

At this point in time, I think our defense is better than it was last year. I really do. However, our rushing offense was much better last year. I think that is going to hurt us more than anything.

dryheat44 12-23-2005 03:01 PM

Right on. The losses of Harrison and Ted Johnson can't be dismissed so easily. The downgrade from Harrison to Hawkins can't be made up. He also allowed us to play more coverages. Now Vrabel has to move inside, which means Willie and Rosey don't get to rotate in to stay fresh. Same for Traylor.

mgteich 12-23-2005 03:21 PM

Your point is well taken. As you say, I should have switched Brown and Davis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brownfan80
Interesting post, but I'll disagree on one minor point. You group Brown's production in with Johnson's.. which if you look at the stats is completely unfair.

Troy Brown is actually having a year that's just as productive as 2003.

His stats are: 36 catches for 435 yards at 12.1 per catch and a long of 71 with 2 TDs.

Johnsons stats for 2005:
4 catches for 67 yards at 16.8 per catch and a long of 55 with 1 TD.

As you can see, all but 12 of his yards came on one catch, leaving the other 3 catches at 4 yards a pop.

As you can tell just from the numbers, those two guys shouldn't be lumped together. Honestly Davis is more in line with Johnson by the numbers, and Dwight is closer to that group than is Brown. Brown is our third leading reciever this season.


mgteich 12-23-2005 03:28 PM

We certainly disagree with regard to linebacker reps. I'm very pleased with the amount of reps that Colvin has had. I like the idea of McGuinist and a healthy and much improved Colvin as starters. You prefer them to split reps. I prefer having a Chad Brown as a backup, rather than waste Colvin in such a role. Inside I prefer having Vrabel instead Ted Johnson. I'm Ok with Beisel to provide occasional relief, but I did prefer Phifer. Overall, I prefer this current six in their current roles to last year's group. The primary change in reps is to Colvin replace Ted Johnson's reps. I think that is a plus to the team, certainly not a negative.

I agree with regard to Traylor. I would prefer a veteran backup NT, rather than Wright. But the NT just doen't play that often in any case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryheat44
Right on. The losses of Harrison and Ted Johnson can't be dismissed so easily. The downgrade from Harrison to Hawkins can't be made up. He also allowed us to play more coverages. Now Vrabel has to move inside, which means Willie and Rosey don't get to rotate in to stay fresh. Same for Traylor.


dryheat44 12-23-2005 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgteich
Overall, I prefer this current six in their current roles to last year's group. The primary change in reps is to Colvin replace Ted Johnson's reps. I think that is a plus to the team, certainly not a negative.

Certainly an arguable postion. I preferred the Bruschi - Johnson/Phifer rotation on the inside and the Vrabel/McGinest/Colvin rotation on the outside. But maybe that's because of the results. Certainly our better athletes are on the field more often in this setup, but I think we've moved Vrabel away from some of the things he does best, and set our team up for fourth quarter fatigue, which we'll see when we face teams with good running games. If Chad Brown or TBC could be a viable OLB to spell Willie and Rosey, I'd feel a lot better about it.

PatsFanSince74 12-23-2005 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgteich
First, I believe that Indy and Cinci are better than anything we faced last year.
------------------------------------------------------------
We are playing without Light, Koppen, Harrison and Gay.

That being said, I believe that we are finally as good a team as the team that won the Super Bowl last year.
------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
Overall - better

THE OFFENSIVE LINE
Sure we've missed Light and Andruzzi. However, Mankins, Kayzur, and Ashworth had made up for the loss, as well as the play of Hochstein at center. The run blocking hasn't been as good, but the pass-blocking has been awesome. The tight ends continue to be a great help as blockers.

THE RECEIVERS
I've been disappointed, although given the YAC's I shouldn't be. I miss David Patten. However, as we go into playoffs, it is good to have all three tight ends and Faulk healthy. They are able receivers. As a whole, the receivers are as good as last year. Branch and Givens have been fine. Hey, I even like Dwight and Davis. Brown and Johnson haven't done much.

THE REST
Brady is haven't another pro-bowl year, and Dillon and Faulk are solid.
----------------------------------------------------------------

DEFENSE
Overall - better
The front seven are the best.

DEFENSIVE LINE
I've been disappointed in the lack of depth. Klecko, Wright and Hill haven't done much, However, the play of our front three #1 picks has been outstanding. Green has been fine as a valuable, well-paid role player.

LINEBACKERS
Many cry and moan about losing Ted Johnson and Phifer. Not me! I'm very well pleased with Colvin outside and Vrabel in. Our four linebackers plus our front three are as good as it gets. And Beisel and Chad Brown are decent backups, providing good depth.

DEFENSIVE BACKS
This is obviously a weakness, but probably no worse than last year. Hawkins has made a huge difference. Hobbs is this year's Gay, and as good as Gay at this time last year. Poteat is better than last year, and Sanders also contributes.
--------------------------------------------------

SPECIAL TEAMS
Overall - better

Vinitieri is healthier. Miller is as good as last year.

Our coverage teams are much better. I'm not sure who is making the difference, but a healthy Chatham, Chad Brown and Beisel sure help.

Our return game isn't much, but it is as good as last year. Dwight was an excellent addition.
-----------------------------------------------------

INTANGIBLES
a work in progress

We'll see. Bruschi seems to have the defense in shape, and Brady the offense. I think we miss both Charlie and Romeo. The defensive backield is almost back, after many weeks of shifting strong safeties each weak. Most importantly, everyone is healthy.
----------------------------------------------------------

BOTTOM LINE

We have about as much chance to go all the way as we did in previous years. To validate this view, go back to postings and media at this time in each of our Super Bowl winning trips. I think you'll find that this team has FEWER deficiencies and FEWER question marks than in past teams.

The real question marks are with our opposition. How good ARE the Colts and the Bengals and even the Bears?

Good analysis of the team by mgteich. I'm a little less sanguine about the Secondary, I think he's giving the O-line a tad more credit than it deserves, I notice he doesn't address the dramatic difference in Dillon's production notwithstanding his injury and I do think that the coverage teams are allowing more yards on runbacks than they did last year. However, all in all, I agree with his assessment that the team is going into the Playoffs strong and ready.

The big intangibles are missing the bye week and having to play all but one game on the road. But, all-in-all, I'd keep my money in pocket if someone asked me to bet against them.

spacecrime 12-23-2005 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skri65
Hawkins is by no means a replacement for harrison. Agreed, I think he will do better than stone, but he has yet to really prove himself. Give him the rest of the season to prove himself. Asante has not been playing well. Lets wait and see, but i cant agree that our secondary is nearly as stable as it was last year.

??? Our secondary was unstable as hell last year. Earthwind Moreland and Omare Lowe? Troy Brown and Don Davis?

Agree that Hawkins isn't Rodney in run support, but remember he is a cornerback playing SS and his coverage skills are much better than Rodney's. I think Hawkins has pretty much proven himself with his play.


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