It is OK to question WTF is going on, right?

emoney_33 · Sep 1, 2008

richpats said:
It wasn't Branch, it was GIVENS. So do you think Branch misses a wide-open pass like Caldwell did?

Did you miss those 3 points in the Super Bowl? I do.

No doubt I would have liked to have Branch in 06. We obviously didn't have anyone better in the patriots system that year. But the situation was more complicated than just having him. He refused to play out his contract that year unless he got a new deal and raise. He was not worth it (obviously) and thus we were left with a crappy WR situation that year. Although, we still had plenty of opportunities to win despite the lack of talent at WR. Also having Branch does not guarantee we win anything that year. It's just as likely they double team Branch and force Tom to throw to a lesser receiver who drops it.

If the options were simply have Branch on the pats in 06 or not, its an easy decision, you would want him on that team. But with the situation the way it was, I think we got a good trade out of it and there wasn't anything else we could have or should have done.

Zeke_Mowatt · Sep 1, 2008

See Websters: Hubris. You think (as do many of the posters here on this board) that you know better than the FO based on some training camp reports, Mel Kiper's draft analysis, and 4 preseason games. Then, when sensible folk like Mo point out that what you are essentially saying in your critiques is that you know better than the people who have proven, over the past 8 years, to be better at their jobs than any of their peers, you whine because all the big bad "experts" disagree with your critique of the FO. Rooting is a VERY different thing than second guessing. Coming here for explanation, even, might prove more worthwhile, but what people like yourself, Thearchives, BradyToMoss, and others have proven, even moreso in the past couple days, is that you all think, for whatever ridiculous reason, that you are smarter than the people who have proven to be the best in the biz at doing what they do. Then you expect everyone to stand behind you and not point out the fallacies in your 12 year old superfan mindset, and if they don't, if they actually have the audacity to cite how well this FO has performed, to suggest that almost every knee jerk "WTF OMG why did they do that ?!?!?!" reaction has proven to be exactly that over the long haul, then they are "homers" who drink the kool-aid. Sorry, I come here for information, not to try and prove I know more than the pros. I might question the reasoning behind something, but mostly because it opens up the discussion for someone to explain why I'm wrong. You, on the other hand, expect us all to stand mute when you suggest you're smarter than the rest of us, and worse, smarter than the pros.

marcus said:
MoLewis:

Your last comment was completely predictable.

Unless posters don't agree with 100% of the moves of the front office and "experts" like yourself on this board...you have to find a new team???

I would not expect teh Patriots to win the super bowl every year or for the FO to be perfect. BB had an awful game for the Super Bowl last year, that won't stop me for always pulling for the Patriots and wanting teh best for them.

A big part of the purpose of this board I thought was supposed to be to give opinions...thats all

Sicilian · Sep 1, 2008

BradyToMoss said:
You are the classic "KoolAid" drinker here Sicilian. It's OK, you can actually come out and say something slightly negative or something that you might not have agreed with that BB and the FO may have done. It's OK, don't feel bad about doing it. You blasted me for expressing my opinion on how bad Bryant was in these PS games, how horrible he was and all I got back from you was that I had no idea what I was talking about, that it's a function of the vanilla D the Pats were playing, blah, blah..........Next thing you know, he's handed his walking papers, then you go silent on the issue.

Have some nads, express an opinion.

Glad to see you read my posts:

"Well, to be fair, it wasn't just me, and my underlying point still stands: BB is the better judge. When he was trotting him out with the 1st team, I was more apt to trust his judgment over anyone here.

But, fair play to you. You were right, I was wrong"

This was in direct response to you in the Bryant cut thread. I even added a clinking beer glass emoticon to raise a glass to you. A little more gracious than asking you to "have some nads" as you so maturely put it. Last time I'll be a gracious loser to you though.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=107934&page=7

emoney_33 · Sep 1, 2008

marcus said:
MoLewis:

Your last comment was completely predictable.

Unless posters don't agree with 100% of the moves of the front office and "experts" like yourself on this board...you have to find a new team???

I would not expect teh Patriots to win the super bowl every year or for the FO to be perfect. BB had an awful game for the Super Bowl last year, that won't stop me for always pulling for the Patriots and wanting teh best for them.

A big part of the purpose of this board I thought was supposed to be to give opinions...thats all

The patriots have had at least as good a chance as ANY other team in the NFL to win the superbowl since 2003. They won it twice since that time, and had some bad breaks, screwups etc. since then that kept them a play or two from winning/advancing.

The Patriots have continuously lost productive players, yet continuously are just as good as any other team in the league. What makes you believe this year we have no chance of the superbowl? It's extremely ignorant, given what we KNOW, to say not to "count" on a super bowl this year.

In the NFL you can't COUNT on a super bowl ANY year. However we do have just as good a chance as any other team once again this year. No team is perfect, no team has 0 weaknesses, and no team has 22 pro bowl starters.

vandergraafgenerator · Sep 1, 2008

BelichickFan said:
All we've lost from the OL is Neal.
We lost our best CB but couldn't just sign an equal one so we have a high draft pick replacing him.
The backup QB is the same as last year.

Relax.

I will be convinced by that argument when I see Brady play a down.
He worries me, I don't think he'll make it through the season. It's just a personal opinion and from the TV coverage I saw of pre-season Cassell is dire.
I reckon Brady was about 10% fit at the SB but we had to play him because
the alternative is so unthinkable. That made the OL jumpy and over nervous and we saw the result. Having a mobile Brady behind you isn't the same as protecting a guy nailed to the spot on one leg.

emoney_33 · Sep 1, 2008

BradyToMoss said:
You are the classic "KoolAid" drinker here Sicilian. It's OK, you can actually come out and say something slightly negative or something that you might not have agreed with that BB and the FO may have done. It's OK, don't feel bad about doing it. You blasted me for expressing my opinion on how bad Bryant was in these PS games, how horrible he was and all I got back from you was that I had no idea what I was talking about, that it's a function of the vanilla D the Pats were playing, blah, blah..........Next thing you know, he's handed his walking papers, then you go silent on the issue.

Have some nads, express an opinion.

Your criticisms of Bryant were not a blast at BB or the organization. They were not a criticism of the signing of Bryant, rather keen observation of his lack of talent from the little you were able to see of him (compared to how much the coaches got to see).

Your observations and opinions on Bryant were confirmed (big time) when BB and the coaching staff showed they agreed with your assessment by cutting him.

I think the bigger issue is guys like Archives or marcus who claim the Front Office screwed up because they signed a guy like Beisel or Bryant or Starks who failed in the system. Yet when the entire picture is taken, what else was available and what OTHER options were there? Not only for now but the future. It's the premature attacks on people who have proven track records, as well as more knowledge and understanding of a situation while we have little to no facts on the surface that bugs a lot of us, who are then labeled as "koolaid drinkers".

BradyToMoss · Sep 1, 2008

Sicilian said:
Glad to see you read my posts:

"Well, to be fair, it wasn't just me, and my underlying point still stands: BB is the better judge. When he was trotting him out with the 1st team, I was more apt to trust his judgment over anyone here.

But, fair play to you. You were right, I was wrong"

This was in direct response to you in the Bryant cut thread. I even added a clinking beer glass emoticon to raise a glass to you. A little more gracious than asking you to "have some nads" as you so maturely put it. Last time I'll be a gracious loser to you though.

Thanks, I didn't see your acknowledgment. I'm not looking for thanks from anyone, but to not be able to question things the front office is doing from the draft to FA or anything else is crazy. Ofcourse we're not "the pros", we're fans and like all fans, we like to express an opinion if we don't agree with something that our favorite team is doing, but you can't seem to do that here for some reason. Isn't that what makes good discussion in the first place is taking a side on a situation and supporting each side of that argument.

Were you happy as BB sat there in the RCA and watched Peyton Manning stand there and stall and watch 45 precious seconds tick off the clock before he called the offtackle draw to Addai, costing Tom precious time that he could have used to help the team tie and win the game himself? Give me your honest thoughts on that sequence at the end of the AFCCG ? Never mind leaving his weakest corner isolated on an island all by himself in the biggest game in franchise history at the end of the game. Do you have thoughts on that? or did BB do the right thing like he always does ?

Pats726 · Sep 1, 2008

Sicilian said:
And that's exactly what I've been trying to suggest! Rather than labelling the moves on the day they're made, judge them in a few weeks when we can see more of the big picture.

When people keep defending a move long after it's been proven to be a mistake, then I agree with you 100%, the organization deserves criticism for that move.

I agree with you...not even wait a few weeks...but a few days even to see what other moves are...
Two days ago..people were in a frenzy about who the starting CBs were after Bryant was cut..FRENZY!! And now O'Neil is here...and that is the point..jumping on the team's FO after every mall move missing the larger picture..and what the total MOVES would be..The games wasn't today folks and MANy act like it was!!
Same with the cuts yesterday..there were REASONS for moves that were way beyond the cuts...an injured TE that might not play and having only 6 offensive linemen..PROBLEMS that needed to be addressed.. And the 2 candidates to be cut?? Jackson...as they have apparently given up on him and Lynch..who I expect to be back in a few weeks. But everyone has looked at the cuts and the OTHER reasons for them. LeVoir is a syop gap measure on the line..so with injuries worse case..they will have 7....with Pociask, many wondered why they did not cut Spach directly. Well 2 things come to mind..maybe Watson's health is better..but more likely, they wished to see how Pociask fit in and apparently they think it's an upgrade over Spach, Again, unprgrading the position. And with DeVree on the PSquad insurance. O'Neil in and the CB problem being addressed. It all makes sense and apparently so many wish to be critical at every sneeze and cough.
Yes, they make mistakes..Bryant did not fit in and neither did Hobson,,but football is not a science..but an art. And this FO has been teh best for years..mistakes and all. Look and follow the roster management of other clubs and see how they are...maybe they are better but I doubt it.

emoney_33 · Sep 1, 2008

Zeke_Mowatt said:
See Websters: Hubris. You think (as do many of the posters here on this board) that you know better than the FO based on some training camp reports, Mel Kiper's draft analysis, and 4 preseason games. Then, when sensible folk like Mo point out that what you are essentially saying in your critiques is that you know better than the people who have proven, over the past 8 years, to be better at their jobs than any of their peers, you whine because all the big bad "experts" disagree with your critique of the FO. Rooting is a VERY different thing than second guessing. Coming here for explanation, even, might prove more worthwhile, but what people like yourself, Thearchives, BradyToMoss, and others have proven, even moreso in the past couple days, is that you all think, for whatever ridiculous reason, that you are smarter than the people who have proven to be the best in the biz at doing what they do. Then you expect everyone to stand behind you and not point out the fallacies in your 12 year old superfan mindset, and if they don't, if they actually have the audacity to cite how well this FO has performed, to suggest that almost every knee jerk "WTF OMG why did they do that ?!?!?!" reaction has proven to be exactly that over the long haul, then they are "homers" who drink the kool-aid. Sorry, I come here for information, not to try and prove I know more than the pros. I might question the reasoning behind something, but mostly because it opens up the discussion for someone to explain why I'm wrong. You, on the other hand, expect us all to stand mute when you suggest you're smarter than the rest of us, and worse, smarter than the pros.

Wonderfully put.

mcbee · Sep 1, 2008

It's fine to question and even criticize.

BB's a good coach but even the best gunslingers run out of bullets. It happens. A bad draft or two, bad personnel decisions (and I don't mean getting rid of Samuel or Branch), just stuff happens, as they say.

Get over it. It's going to be a long season if you don't. 8-8 (or worse) is a possibility. These things happen to the best of them.

Maybe next year?

MoLewisrocks · Sep 1, 2008

marcus said:
MoLewis:

Your last comment was completely predictable.

Unless posters don't agree with 100% of the moves of the front office and "experts" like yourself on this board...you have to find a new team???

I would not expect teh Patriots to win the super bowl every year or for the FO to be perfect. BB had an awful game for the Super Bowl last year, that won't stop me for always pulling for the Patriots and wanting teh best for them.

A big part of the purpose of this board I thought was supposed to be to give opinions...thats all

No, I suggested to you that if enjoying the fan experience requires security in the knowledge that your team is going to the Superbowl and your defense will shut down the league, you might want to look for a team that you feel offers that because you obviously don't perceive this one as that team. And I suggested if you find what you're looking for somewhere else you give the rest of us a holler. I for one am satisfied with the fan experience here in NE but there is a good chance that richie or buttboy or archives or mcbee might follow you to utopia. At least we can hope so. Resident trolls bring nothing to the fan experience here.

Pats67 · Sep 1, 2008

richpats said:
And your gender of preference is male....not that there is anything wrong with that

I should have known it wouldn't be long before you broke out your Lincoln-esque debating skills.

Someone apparently thinks he's entitled to something here. As if what we have for a team and an organization isn't nearly good enough for you, even after its demonstrated again and again and again that's it's on balance better than any other NFL fan base has had this decade. You deserve more, apparently. You deserve championships! You deserve perfection! Even if you can't manage to type 'the' correctly two times in a row. It doesn't matter - that Super Bowl was stolen from YOU! They took from you what was rightfully yours!

By the way, I don't have any problem believing you're a Pats fan. I've seen the act before. The issue here isn't people debating roster moves and even disagreeing about the value of this player or that. It's not about people having strong opinions on both sides.

It's about the same old song every time the Patriots do anything. Out comes the truth squad with their litany of Belichick grievances. As if that wasn't bad enough, they come under the cover of the being only ones with enough "sense" to see the "truth", while the rest of us march merrily along towards some sort of mass suicide. That's not a debate. That's not even a strong opinion. It's just some hack from the "smaht-est fans in America" self-aggrandizing club. It's weak.

Sicilian · Sep 1, 2008

BradyToMoss said:
Were you happy as BB sat there in the RCA and watched Peyton Manning stand there and stall and watch 45 precious seconds tick off the clock before he called the offtackle draw to Addai, costing Tom precious time that he could have used to help the team tie and win the game himself? Give me your honest thoughts on that sequence at the end of the AFCCG ? Never mind leaving his weakest corner isolated on an island all by himself in the biggest game in franchise history at the end of the game. Do you have thoughts on that? or did BB do the right thing like he always does ?

No, I wasn't to be honest. I don't remember the exact sequence in the Colts game, but I remember being pretty... um... "active" on my sofa. The Burress touchdown puzzled me as well. I didn't want to talk about that game for a long time after it happened, so I didn't mention anything here, but it seemed like a strange call to me.

I'm capable of criticizing, I'm just more apt to do so after the fact like in those situations. And mistakes within the confines of a game don't always equate to personnel moves. I find it difficult to say a move is good or bad definitively when I have 1/100th of the information at my disposal that the Pats FO has. I prefer to speculate on what their rational could have been, rather than make a blanket, "this move is great!" or "this move sucks!" post.

emoney_33 · Sep 1, 2008

mcbee said:
It's fine to question and even criticize.

BB's a good coach but even the best gunslingers run out of bullets. It happens. A bad draft or two, bad personnel decisions (and I don't mean getting rid of Samuel or Branch), just stuff happens, as they say.

Get over it. It's going to be a long season if you don't. 8-8 (or worse) is a possibility. These things happen to the best of them.

Maybe next year?

Last comic standing. This team is a 10-12 win team... EVEN WITH CASSEL starting. It's a 13+ win team with Brady

It is OK to question WTF is going on, right?

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