Giant Advantages ?

leek21 said:

You did not shut down Jacobs here are his stats:

15 carries, 67 yards, long of 16 (trucked Harrison).
5 receptions, 44 yards and 1 TD

Remember the Giants had the ball for less than 24 minutes, thanks to your OFFENSE!! NOT your DEFENSE!!
In that short time Jacobs racked up over 110 offensive yards, and a TD.

In the SB the Giants will also have Bradshaw playing.
As I said before, you better hope your offense controls the clock and scores often to force the Giants to pass.

The Giants running game is very strong.

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Wait--now the Giants running game includes passing yards?

Jacobs is a talent, but you keep pointing out that he 'trucked' Harrison without recognizing that the players charged with stopping him are Warren, Wilfork and Seymour in the middle and Vrabel and Thomas on the edge. Those aren't 220lb safeties--that is an average of close to 300lbs of blue chip talent. I like our chances.

The Giants will likely need to amass a total of more than 175 rushing yards to win this game. If you think that this is a high probability occurrence then you are indeed being obtuse.

Watson's IQ said:

Don't bother. It seems he's only planning to address issues we raise if he can spin them to make his own point. I've been trying to have an intelligent discussion with him, but so far it's not taking.

It's a shame, because I'd love to discuss the matchups rationally with a Giants fan, but I don't want to hear about their "elite" secondary or any of that, really. It's not worth the time.

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Did I ever say anything about an "elite" secondary ? Nope.

I'm just countering what you are saying and it is frustrating you.

leek21 said:

Allow me to explain in a more gentle, soothing tone. Belichick was stacking the line to stop the run... and it wasn't working in the Pats favour because the Giants were scoring points.

Giants were very much in the game.. in fact they were winning.

If Belichick wants to focus that much on the run.... then he will again give up points in the air.

I suspect he learned his lesson from the first game... so the Giants WILL be able to run on the Pats JUST as they DID when Belichick went back to a more regular defense.

Do you think the Pats can afford to stack the line in the SB ? Remember Burress burned you deep when you did this in the first game, and Manning exposed your secondary.

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So the Giants' running game was contained in the first half (understatement of the year) and then Jacobs ran the ball "well" in the second half. But they lost a twelve point lead. How does that bode well for the Giants in this upcoming game? What happened to Eli Manning when the Patriots started blitzing? 22-0, THAT's what happened.

The Patriots aren't going to allow Manning to do what he did in that last game, and the Giants have already shown that they can't beat the Pats running the ball (ironically enough, your argument has shown as much).

leek21 said:

Did I ever say anything about an "elite" secondary ? Nope.

I'm just countering what you are saying and it is frustrating you.

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You have made maybe one or two cogent points about the Giants in this entire thread. I promise that no one is in the least bit frustrated on this end. If anything, I'm frustrated by the fact that you've been obstinate in choosing which areas of the matchup to dissect. You claimed that Dockery provides a better matchup against Welker, and that Madison will improve the coverage on Moss without providing a shred of evidence.

I've acknowledged your point about the Giants rushing attack, I'd like to hear you back up your assertion about the Giants secondary's ability (to any extent) to stymie the Pats pass attack.

leek21 said:

Did I ever say anything about an "elite" secondary ? Nope.

I'm just countering what you are saying and it is frustrating you.

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Yeah, we're really frustrated about Sam Madison covering Randy Moss. How will Moss ever beat a great corner like Madison
This isn't 2002 anymore for Sam.

And Welker against a complete stud like Dockery? No chance for Wes there!

leek21 said:

Allow me to explain in a more gentle, soothing tone. Belichick was stacking the line to stop the run... and it wasn't working in the Pats favour because the Giants were scoring points.

Giants were very much in the game.. in fact they were winning.

If Belichick wants to focus that much on the run.... then he will again give up points in the air.

I suspect he learned his lesson from the first game... so the Giants WILL be able to run on the Pats JUST as they DID when Belichick went back to a more regular defense.

Do you think the Pats can afford to stack the line in the SB ? Remember Burress burned you deep when you did this in the first game, and Manning exposed your secondary.

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I think that you need to reevaluate your definition of "exposed". If Manning exposed NE's secondary, what did Brady do to NY's? Sodomize it?

Manning had a nice drive just before halftime. He deserves a lot of credit for it as his movement both in and out of the pocket were huge factors in that and other drives.

But Manning still only passed for 260 yards. NE still held NY scoreless on 5 of 9 drives while NY allowed NE to score on 7 of 9. You hold up Madison as if he is anything more than a decent corner, but NE scored on every offensive possession of the first half. I seem to recall his injury happening in the second half.

You can have Madison and Bradshaw. I'll take NE's entire right side of the line and their blocking TE.

Hello Giants fan. It's nice to see opposing fans who aren't trolls.

Fellow Pats fans: What's up with attacking a guy because you don't agree with him?

As for the game, people point out to the games the NE pass defense was bad or games the NE run defense were bad and try to conclude that both are bad. The obvious truth is that the defense tries to take different things away in different games.

Against Jacksonville NE took away the run. NE's defense (with old LBs, no less) stopped the run and made them win through the air. They couldn't. NE also did this against Pitt, NYG, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and some other teams. And even though some of those QBs had the games of their lives (in large part to the NE defense giving them wide open 15 yards pass plays all game) they couldn't beat NE.

In the Giants game NE was forced to change their defense. They did so and proceeded to score 24 (?) unanswered points. The Giants only again scored in garbage time. Isn't this relevant? Doesn't this tell us that they won't start out the Superbowl the same way.

I guess I'm just saying not to buy into the "bad NE defense" hype.

TomBrady'sGoat said:

Fellow Pats fans: What's up with attacking a guy because you don't agree with him?

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We're disagreeing and debating, it's a far cry from attacking, really.

TomBrady'sGoat said:

Hello Giants fan. It's nice to see opposing fans who aren't trolls.

Fellow Pats fans: What's up with attacking a guy because you don't agree with him?

As for the game, people point out to the games the NE pass defense was bad or games the NE run defense were bad and try to conclude that both are bad. The obvious truth is that the defense tries to take different things away in different games.

Against Jacksonville NE took away the run. NE's defense (with old LBs, no less) stopped the run and made them win through the air. They couldn't. NE also did this against Pitt, NYG, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and some other teams. And even though some of those QBs had the games of their lives (in large part to the NE defense giving them wide open 15 yards pass plays all game) they couldn't beat NE.

In the Giants game NE was forced to change their defense. They did so and proceeded to score 24 (?) unanswered points. The Giants only again scored in garbage time. Isn't this relevant? Doesn't this tell us that they won't start out the Superbowl the same way.

I guess I'm just saying not to buy into the "bad NE defense" hype.

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This particular poster is hardly bringing anything of substance. He touched on a few things that had a veneer of importance, but when inspected more closely proved inconsequential. When rebutted, he just restates the same thing again. After a few times where he ignores the pertinant parts of the rebuttal sometimes it takes more obvious measures to get one's attention.

The one point everyone of over looking is that in the last game of the season the Pats didn't do anything special they played a vannila offense that, if you watched the game, seemed at times(many times) to be going for Brady's and Moss' records. They also played a Vannila defense untill they need to come back and win the game and once they started getting pressure on Manning he couldn't do anything. I'm not saying the Giants are not good but they are not in the class of the Pats when the Pats are playing THEIR type of foot ball

Oswlek said:

This particular poster is hardly bringing anything of substance. He touched on a few things that had a veneer of importance, but when inspected more closely proved inconsequential. When rebutted, he just restates the same thing again. After a few times where he ignores the pertinant parts of the rebuttal sometimes it takes more obvious measures to get one's attention.

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What Oswlek said. We've both been trying to engage him in discussion in this thread with limited results. Doesn't mean I won't keep trying, because he's a far cry better than a typical troll type, but I'm still waiting for him to acknowledge some of the holes in his own argument.

A.C Vegas said:

The one point everyone of over looking is that in the last game of the season the Pats didn't do anything special they played a vannila offense that, if you watched the game, seemed at times(many times) to be going for Brady's and Moss' records. They also played a Vannila defense untill they need to come back and win the game and once they started getting pressure on Manning he couldn't do anything. I'm not saying the Giants are not good but they are not in the class of the Pats when the Pats are playing THEIR type of foot ball

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That is a very good point. It seemed to me that Brady was looking for Moss a lot more than he usually would have. I read that was because he was determined not to break that record alone - just the kind of guy he is, share the wealth!

I suspect he learned his lesson from the first game... so the Giants WILL be able to run on the Pats JUST as they DID when Belichick went back to a more regular defense.

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I would agree with that assesment. Eli has matured greatly over the last month, starting with that final game of the regular season. We have to respect his game more this time around. This will mean less focus paid to the running attack, but better coverage & possible pressure on Eli. Run the ball all you want. If we're up by 14 early then by all means run out the clock for us. :rocker:

Watson's IQ said:

You have made maybe one or two cogent points about the Giants in this entire thread. I promise that no one is in the least bit frustrated on this end. If anything, I'm frustrated by the fact that you've been obstinate in choosing which areas of the matchup to dissect. You claimed that Dockery provides a better matchup against Welker, and that Madison will improve the coverage on Moss without providing a shred of evidence.

I've acknowledged your point about the Giants rushing attack, I'd like to hear you back up your assertion about the Giants secondary's ability (to any extent) to stymie the Pats pass attack.

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I have provided evidence for both of the above, here it is again:

1) Moss was fairly well contained before Madison got injured. Moss had
5 receptions for 35 yards and a TD. After Madison went down Moss had that deep bomb for 65 yards. Madison will be back, that is a good thing for the Giants.

2) Dockery who missed the first game is a small quick corner, unlike Ross and Webster who are both 6 feet. Dockery is 5'8". He will match up against Welker better. Problem still is LBers on Welker which is an obvious mismatch favouring you guys.

I should add that I hope he/she does come back with more stuff. Fans should be confident in their teams, particularly when you get this far. I think part of his problem is pointing out this as "advantages" when he could call them "strengths" without any real issue. The Giants are full of them.

Pass rush - Leading the league in sacks is nothing to sneeze at. The Giants proved last game that even on a "down" week (as far as sacks go) they can stil be mightily disruptive.

Running game - Jacobs is tough to tackle and Bradshaw runs with the vision of a vet.

OL - NY stoned NE's standard pass rush last game forcing NE to blitz any time they really wanted to get pressure.

QB - Eli has made some terrific reads and throws lately. From the NE game on, he has made at least one remarkable play while on the run.

DL - aside from their pass rush, the Giants are excellent at stopping the run. The strength of their line allows them to defend the pass and run without having to adjust scheme all that much.

LBs - while I think that they can be had in coverage, the Giants have some excellent LBs against the run and rushing the passer.

leek21 said:

I have provided evidence for both of the above, here it is again:

1) Moss was fairly well contained before Madison got injured. Moss had
5 receptions for 35 yards and a TD. After Madison went down Moss had that deep bomb for 65 yards. Madison will be back, that is a good thing for the Giants.

2) Dockery who missed the first game is a small quick corner, unlike Ross and Webster who are both 6 feet. Dockery is 5'8". He will match up against Welker better. Problem still is LBers on Welker which is an obvious mismatch favouring you guys.

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This is not evidence, just your opinion. Please provide evidence, because we're not buying what you are selling.

leek21 said:

I have provided evidence for both of the above, here it is again:

1) Moss was fairly well contained before Madison got injured. Moss had
5 receptions for 35 yards and a TD. After Madison went down Moss had that deep bomb for 65 yards. Madison will be back, that is a good thing for the Giants.

2) Dockery who missed the first game is a small quick corner, unlike Ross and Webster who are both 6 feet. Dockery is 5'8". He will match up against Welker better. Problem still is LBers on Welker which is an obvious mismatch favouring you guys.

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To get Dockery on the field, you have to go to a nickle defense. How often does NY do this? Also, It would require NY to go man:man on defense.

You don't see this unless you watch NE regularly, but they purposely mess around with personel packages early to see how the defense counters. Then they take advantage of player versatility by running against a nickle/dime even in the spread or passing with two tights. The Madison/Moss thing is fine, but NE will force NY to cover Welker with other defenders or they will take advantage of NY playing in man coverage by running more or some other tactic.

BTW, Madison was on the field when NY allowed Moss to get deep the first time. Would he have been so successful if Moss had been 6/90 and a TD? And Moss got open on the second one because of NY's coverage decision, not bad CB play, so the fact that Madison was out of the game on the TD is irrelevent.

leek21 said:

I have provided evidence for both of the above, here it is again:

1) Moss was fairly well contained before Madison got injured. Moss had
5 receptions for 35 yards and a TD. After Madison went down Moss had that deep bomb for 65 yards. Madison will be back, that is a good thing for the Giants.

2) Dockery who missed the first game is a small quick corner, unlike Ross and Webster who are both 6 feet. Dockery is 5'8". He will match up against Welker better. Problem still is LBers on Welker which is an obvious mismatch favouring you guys.

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I guess it depends on your definition of "contained". Madison's best days are behind him as a corner, and he's not going to cover Moss without safety help anyways.

As for Dockery, him being small and quick is no indication to me that he can match up with Welker, who is also an excellent route runner. All it proves is that he's also small and quick.

Again, I think you're overrating the Giants secondary, and I remain unconvinced otherwise. The Patriots have seen far better secondaries this year, and handled them well.

leek21 said:

Wrong. They went away from the run because they were behind playing catch up.

Weren't the Giants ahead by 12 points at some point in the game?
Why didn;'t they just use their powerful running game to stay ahead???????


They ran effectively against you... as did the Giants in the first game... the Ravens and many other teams.

Problem is your offense scores so quickly teams get away from the run so your defense never gets fully exposed.

There is some reason to believe it will be different

What is that some reason?

in the SB. Giants running game is among the best in the league, especially since Bradshaw has started sharing time with Jacobs.

I just don't see your old LBers able to stop them all game... your only hope is for your offense to score points early and oftne to force the Giants to pass.

Seems to me the oldies been hanging in there for 18 games.
Believe it or not this unit is very very good. You'll see.

A close hard fought game actually favours the Giants. Giants 38 Pats 34.

Not even close ... game will be over by the half

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Actually what the Giants did in the first game was the best game plan
to beat the PATs. IMO
Manning thew most of his passes on 1st and 2nd downs and the pass game
was the big part of their offense.
They got ahead by 12 points ... that's when they should have used their
run game to move the chains and just match score for score with the
PATs. Why didn't they?
Because
1. Brady went crazy and scored on 8 plays against the mighty Giants D.
They didn't even make it hard to score?????
2. With the score 23-28 Giants still had the lead. They could have run,
run, run .... move the chains eat up the clock and match the PATs recent
score. But no they got scared and kept passing. With a sack on Manning
the tide had turned.

Why will it be different this time? I can't think of a reason. The thing
is Giants D in the 3rd and 4th Q will not be able to contain the PATs offense. It's that simple.

By the way count the times the Giants don't score a TD or FG on offense.
When you count 5 ... game is over. Look at the score.

Watson's IQ said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "contained". Madison's best days are behind him as a corner, and he's not going to cover Moss without safety help anyways.

As for Dockery, him being small and quick is no indication to me that he can match up with Welker, who is also an excellent route runner. All it proves is that he's also small and quick.

Again, I think you're overrating the Giants secondary, and I remain unconvinced otherwise. The Patriots have seen far better secondaries this year, and handled them well.

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I'm still trying to figure out how Manning "exposed" NE's secondary that day while NY's is somehow excellent despite Brady marching up and down the field on them all day.