Shula at it again with the "Asterisk" Argument

shmessy said:

Excuse me, but really how many here say that what the Patriots/BB did was not "deserving of censure"?

I, for one, believe that they were deserving of penalties for breaking the rule. They WERE penalized. They DID pay for it.

The point here is about Shula arguing that they should be penalized FURTHER with an asterisk. The rule breaking occurred within the first 7 minutes of the first game of the season. Even the biggest Patriot haters admit that it had no effect on the 18 (perhaps 19) subsequent wins.

The argument (despite your above effort to steer it there) does NOT center around whether the Patriots deserved their ALREADY SERVED penalty. It concerns Don Shula's contention that a FURTHER censure is necessitated. In this regard, he is on an island with the New York Post and a few other 'highly regarded' segments of society.

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shmessy said:

Excuse me, but really how many here say that what the Patriots/BB did was not "deserving of censure"?

I, for one, believe that they were deserving of penalties for breaking the rule. They WERE penalized. They DID pay for it.

The point here is about Shula arguing that they should be penalized FURTHER with an asterisk. The rule breaking occurred within the first 7 minutes of the first game of the season. Even the biggest Patriot haters admit that it had no effect on the 18 (perhaps 19) subsequent wins.

The argument (despite your above effort to steer it there) does NOT center around whether the Patriots deserved their ALREADY SERVED penalty. It concerns Don Shula's contention that a FURTHER censure is necessitated. In this regard, he is on an island with the New York Post and a few other 'highly regarded' segments of society.

If he is not to be considered a rank hypocrit, then he should accept that the 1972 Miami Dolphins should have an asterisk attached to THEMSELVES. They won their 17 straight games with an illegally obtained Head Coach. It must have been a big crime, since the NFL penalized them a first round draft choice for it. The fact that the illegal hiring took place two years earlier had as much effect if not more (they got to keep their illegally obtained coach, but the Pats had to give up their tapes and could not tape further) than the fact that the illegal taping occurred within the first 7 minutes of the 2007 season.

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PonyExpress said:

Goodell explicitly stated that the Patriots' infraction had no bearing on the outcome of any games. Case closed. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

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Deus Irae said:

IF you're talking about the press release, you're wrong:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1635

The release only addresses the Patriots-Jets game, as far as outcomes affected. If you have him commenting on this at a later time, I'd love to get a link to that for my files.

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Deus Irae said:

IF you're talking about the press release, you're wrong:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1635

The release only addresses the Patriots-Jets game, as far as outcomes affected. If you have him commenting on this at a later time, I'd love to get a link to that for my files.

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Deus Irae said:

IF you're talking about the press release, you're wrong:

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1635

The release only addresses the Patriots-Jets game, as far as outcomes affected. If you have him commenting on this at a later time, I'd love to get a link to that for my files.

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PonyExpress said:

Please follow the bouncing ball:

1. "New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick has been fined the maximum amount under the NFL Constitution and By-Laws of $500,000 for violating league policy last Sunday on the use of equipment to videotape an opposing team’s offensive or defensive signals, the NFL announced today."

The Patriots violated league policy the Sunday of the jet game. No other infraction occurred.

2. "In his review of the facts, Commissioner Goodell determined that the Patriots’ use last Sunday of the video camera, which was seized before the end of the first quarter, had no impact on the outcome of the Patriots-New York Jets game."

The Patriot infraction, according to the commissioner of the NFL, the one man in possession of all the facts and evidence, had no bearing on the outcome of the Jet game.

If the Pats only violated league policy in the first half of the Jet game, and it didn't affect the outcome of that game, then the Patriots' infraction had no bearing on the outcome of any game. This according to the commissioner of the NFL, the man who headed the investigation.

All other accusations from press and message boards are based on rumor innuendo and lies, are totally irresponsible and intended to smear the organization.

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Patriotic said:

Pony,

You don't get it. You're a Pats fan.

Any data you present - even if it's objective analysis from respected third party sources - will be immediaetly dismissed by the "high minded" like we've seen on this thread.

Let's face it, my friend. You and I are Pats fans. In the eyes of the "high minded", we're parochial yahoos. Our emotionally charged opinions are to be dismissed by those who possess God like wisdom.

Warmly,

Patriotic

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shula_guy said:

Firstoff I never have said spygate was or wasnt a big deal. Wheather it was or was not, the commioners mistake was to burn evidence before his statements could be confirmed or refutted. That is a crime in its self.

Secondly the rest of your post is completly inaccurate and full of venmous attacks. I will not lower myself to engage in such a meaningless exercise of name calling and insults.



Morris might be sincere but he is an idiot and should not be in front of any media. Shula is not taking a stand, as you put it. He was approached by the media and asked his opinion. They do it every year when a team looks like they might make a run for the record. You have a right to not like what he said and to not agree with it, but some people here seem to want to twist his words and missquote him. I personally dont remember the exact quote of what he said when he mentioned the asterisk, but he did not suggest that he thought the pats should have an asterisk next to thier name. That is a manipulation and missrepresation of what he said in order to enflame some of you, and further along other peoples agenda around the leauge for controversy.



Honestly Im not completly familiar with that incident but I will take your word for it. I get your point. It would be like saying everytime a team wins a game but had a penality that game they should get an asterisk next to thier name as well.


Heres my opinion for what it is worth. I think the pats have had a blessed season and your front office has assembled one of the strongest assemblences of talent the nfl has ever seen in todays era of football. If they win the SB congrats to them for accomplishing something that has never been done before.

Why never before????
Without getting into who's team accomplished the harder of the two records. The fact is they are two different records. When the Dolphins did it, it was a different game then today. They did not have the ability to buy proven stars into need postions VIA free agency. They had to build a team through the draft. The rules today are heavily favored towards the offense and protecting players from injury. It has also become a pass friendly game. There was also no two point conversions around back then. All in all it's comparing apples and oranges. What the pats are doing this year is special. What the Dolphins did in 1972 was special. It's silly to debate the two. Enjoy your sucess of this season and leave it at that.

Stop buying into the media hype. They are only in it for selling themselves. They could careless about either of our records or our teams.

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SackDance said:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orl-bianchi2508jan25,0,3990753.column

The old man is at it again. When will he ever learn? Guess when you're about to be pushed out of the record books, it's hard to accept.

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PatriotsReign said:

Deus, ...you posted the wrong Goodell statement. He later stated that no competitive advantage was gained after the tapes were destroyed.

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shula_guy said:

I personally dont remember the exact quote of what he said when he mentioned the asterisk, but he did not suggest that he thought the pats should have an asterisk next to thier name. That is a manipulation and missrepresation of what he said in order to enflame some of you, and further along other peoples agenda around the leauge for controversy.

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shula_guy said:

So show where Shula says an asterisk should be placed in front of the patriots season? You cant because it does not exist. He never said it all he did was compare it to the Bonds situation in which people were calling for an asterisk next to his record. What Shula meant was that it was a shame that a team capable of so much got caught doing something that ultimatly detracts from thier accomplishments of thier season. Some of you seem to feel the need to make more of it then you should. You all come off with this big chip on your shoulder. Im a Dolphins fan and Im telling you I think its been overblown. You all arnt helping it go away by throwing around insults at everyone else in the leaugue, both retired an active. Get over it already! Some of you have spent this entire season looking for any rule infraction you could fine to over exagerate and pointback to spygate and say "see its not just us, the nfl just hates us". Do you realize how petty that makes you look as a group. Trust me I know I have been a Dolphins fan a long time and year after year this stupid controversy and name slinging happens to us and its dumb and meaningless. If you win on feb 3rd congradulations you will have listen to how your team is a bunch of argoant aholes who live in thier past glory just because they will be proud and celebrate an achievment that few can boast of. Oh and when the next team comes along to tie the record please dont try to sell to me that the guys holding the record will be cheering for that team to join them in thier circle of accomplishment. Becareful about using the hypocrit when you and your team may find themselves being labled the same thing in the future.

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JoeSixPat said:

Nope - he actually posted the right statement... Deus just didn't actually read it.

Here's the statement that Deus seems to back a contention that the video had an impact on the outcome of the season:

"In his review of the facts, Commissioner Goodell determined that the Patriots’ use last Sunday of the video camera, which was seized before the end of the first quarter, had no impact on the outcome of the Patriots-New York Jets game."

If Deus contends that an unviewed video of Game 1 somehow affected the outcome of Game 2-16 I'd love to hear about it.

Other than that I think most logical people understand that Goodell's statement is pretty clear that the video had no bearing on the outcome of any games this season.

So if there's to be an asterisk, should we go 19-0 it should read as such:

Patriots 19-0*

*Confirmed by Commissioner Goodell as being achieved with no unauthorized competitive advantage.

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PatriotsReign said:

Deus Irae,

Can't believe you're a Pats fan! This issue is dead buddy....D-E-A-D, dead!! Watch all the super bowl hype on ESPN or the NFL network and you won't hear peep about this issue beyond the fact that it happened. No one is questioning the accomplishments of the Patriots this year or any other year.

Fan sites don't count because by their very nature, most of their memebers are Patriot haters. Why haven't you ever brought up any of the other rule violating teams and cried about them?

Regardless of what anyone says, thinks or writes, there will be no asterisk on the Patriots. History will remember them for what they have accomplished, end of story. I guess history will remember them in the same light as the Baltimore Colts, SF 49ers and Denver Bronco's salary cap rule breaking teams. One can't argue against this or they would look like an idiot! All teams that break rules have to be looked upon in the same light, there is no argument that can say otherwise.

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PonyExpress said:

Pretty funny that these "Patriot fans" get their panties in a bunch when someone wants to criticize Saint Shula. I have to wonder why they get so worked up defending this senile old fart. My guess is they comprise that group of NE residents who bagged out on the Patriots in the 70s, and jumped on the Dolphin bandwagon, reveling in the beatdowns and blowouts delivered against the Pats by Dandy Don. Later, when Dolphin wins dried up like Shula's wrinkled face, and the Patriots became good again, they conveniently switched allegiances back. No self-respecting die hard Patriot fan would ever utter a word defending Shula's rotten carcass after the smack he has been spewing all year. Bob Griese sounded off this week about he's going to "celebrate" if the Patriots lose. Kuechenberg, Morris et.al have been trashing this team all season. Don Shula is already qestioning the validity of this team even if it wins. Any "Patriot fan" who doesn't have a problem with this is a clueless idiot. Seriously, why don't you mosey over to Finheaven and root for the Dolphins. It'll be like old times.

BTW, I heard a Griese interview where he talked about getting to know Tom Brady when he was "the backup to my son Brian" at Michigan. It was factual, but another slap by a lead member of that pathetic crew. I wish the worst on all of them- in the SPORTING sense, of course.

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