OT: Colts and Titans Had "Agreement"

sieglo · Jan 3, 2008

The fine over "Spygate" was ridiculously overblown.

The Jets should be fined commensurately for their own camera violations, not because the violation is significant itself, but because the league established a precedent with the Pats fine and they ought to stick to it.

The Colts behavior piping extra noise into the Dome is significantly worse than both the Jets' and Pats' camera violations.

I don't have any problem at all with this latest Colts/Titans issue. It is below Spygate and WAY below Noisegate on the scale of unsportsmanlike behavior.

BradyManny · Jan 3, 2008

sieglo said:
It is below Spygate and WAY below Noisegate on the scale of unsportsmanlike behavior.

I sort of agree, but am of the mindset that since BB's transgression was so overblown, so must too any other mild transgressions.

workhorse · Jan 3, 2008

Patriotic Fervor said:
No, no, no, you idiot!

It's not about resting players, and it's not about taking a knee.

It's about a quid pro quo, whereby 2 teams agreed, in advance, to run plays and the clock in a predetermined sequence that permitted a desired outcome for both parties.

In the real world, that's an antitrust violation called collusion, which is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.

Yeah, yeah, I know - the NFL has antitrust exemption. Not that that is the issue involved here.

The issue, as many have stated more eloquently than me, is that the "integrity" of the game, which Lord Goodell has expressed manifest piousness for, has been impugned.

It had the potential to affect the outcome of a not only a game, but final standings that affect playoff possibilities.

Or, as Lord Goodell might put it, the very appearance of impropriety makes this a dastardly deed.

Like it or not, that's what it is. Nothing more, nothing less.

Stop employing strawmen arguments with that dog and pony show you bring. You're not impressing anyone, and you're not going to win the argument with such pedestrian tactics.

What works at the Indy Star won't work here.

Sorry....

Please show me where this was agreed to in advance. Please. You can honestly say they had this planned out in advance? This had to be an in the moment type thing where someone said just run it out, we are going to call time out.

This would not have effected the outcome. The Colts were not about to get anyone hurt. Sorgi takes a knee and it's the same score as when Collins ran the clock out.

Deus Irae · Jan 3, 2008

workhorse said:
Please show me where this was agreed to in advance. Please. You can honestly say they had this planned out in advance? This had to be an in the moment type thing where someone said just run it out, we are going to call time out.

This would not have effected the outcome. The Colts were not about to get anyone hurt. Sorgi takes a knee and it's the same score as when Collins ran the clock out.

This is exactly what needs to be found out, don't you think?

Caspir · Jan 3, 2008

It can't be a real scnadal unless/until there is a -gate attached to it. Kneel-gate? Time Out-gate? Kerry Collins is a loud mouth stupid idiot who never should have mentioned it-gate?

SoxPatsFaninIndy · Jan 3, 2008

Caspir said:
It can't be a real scnadal unless/until there is a -gate attached to it. Kneel-gate? Time Out-gate? Kerry Collins is a loud mouth stupid idiot who never should have mentioned it-gate?

Alcoholicgate?

speed · Jan 3, 2008

Deus Irae said:
This is exactly what needs to be found out, don't you think?

I agree, that is what needs to be determined.

workhorse · Jan 3, 2008

Deus Irae said:
This is exactly what needs to be found out, don't you think?

Since it is basically impossible for to predict that the Titans would get the ball inside the Colts 30 with less that 2:00 and the Colts having only 1 time out, I would have to say that it was a spur of the moment thing.

At that point in time the game was over and neither team wanted to get any other players hurt. Heck, Scaife had his liver lacerated and Chris Henry got hit so hard that the Bengals Chris Henry felt it.

PatsFanSince74 · Jan 3, 2008

THIS STORY IS NOW ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE MSNBC WEB SITE!

It might have legs and would definitely be bigger than spygate.

Patriotic Fervor · Jan 3, 2008

workhorse said:
Please show me where this was agreed to in advance. Please. You can honestly say they had this planned out in advance? This had to be an in the moment type thing where someone said just run it out, we are going to call time out.

This would not have effected the outcome. The Colts were not about to get anyone hurt. Sorgi takes a knee and it's the same score as when Collins ran the clock out.

Just one point to make - how did Tennessee know? Without foreknowledge, how could this valuable tidbit of information be passed along?

Note, too, in my post, I didn't say it would have affected the outcome, I said it had the potential to affect the outcome, and because of that, it gives the very impression of impropriety because of it's appearances.

What is at issue here is, where are you going to draw the line? How are you going to keep the masses out there convinced everything's on the up-and-up when it sure looks like what's going on stinks, even if there's nothing there?

In a fast-paced, violent game that historically has always tried to keep it's nose clean in a sport that could very easily be ripe for exploitation by unsavory elements in society, the last thing they should want is to be perceived as beefed up Roller Derby, professional 'rasslin' or jai alai.

We've already gotten a black eye because of such "appearances". You'd think at least the league would want to make sure it, as well as the league, is taken with a modicum of seriousness.

But then, that's just me, I guess....

workhorse · Jan 3, 2008

PatsFanSince74 said:
THIS STORY IS NOW ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE MSNBC WEB SITE!

It might have legs and would definitely be bigger than spygate.

And Fisher said it was because he knew Dungy's coaching style. He didn't indicate that Dungy told him anything.

"Fisher said he knew Dungy wouldn't use the timeout because he's so familiar with the Colts coach's thinking, the Knoxville (Tenn.) News-Sentinel reported Thursday.

"Let me just say, I knew he wasn't going to use it. Tony and I were on the competition committee for a long time," Fisher said, the newspaper reported.

The Titans coach also said the Colts would have gotten the ball back with 25 seconds left but down nine because Tennessee would have kicked another field goal, the newspaper reported.

"It didn't make any sense. They gave it their best shot," Fisher said, the News-Sentinel reported."

Mooch · Jan 3, 2008

This is laughable.

Tempest in a teapot.

The game was over anyways. Just move on.

BB_dynasty · Jan 3, 2008

This isn't a big deal, God told Dungy to do this so I am not going to argue.

Seriously though, as much as I dislike the colts, they can use strategy to decide who they want in a playoff if they want. Do I agree with it? No. They could have just let Tennessee do whatever play they planned to do, and it would be fine, but telling Tennessee that they would not call a timeout is what is wrong about it.
The colts had few starters playing, and chances are one more play won't cause an injury. I guess there is a small risk, but that is like saying you won't walk up stairs because you could trip and hurt yourself.
If the colts hadn't told Tennessee about their plans, then the Titans likely would have ran a play, and they would probably expect a timeout, but they won't get one. Instead the clock would have ran out, and the same outcome would have been reached, without any controversy. Do I hope the Colts get punished for their misdeeds? I hope, but will it happen? No, not with the Polian effect, and the bad publicity it would make for the NFL, the "model franchise, full of Saints" does something wrong. No way does Goodell show that he has any balls in this case. Scared Polian would pick him up and throw him across a room.

Deus Irae · Jan 3, 2008

Caspir said:
Collins said that the Titans originally called a running play, but he was told over his headset that the Colts wouldn't call a timeout to potentially force Tennessee to punt with less than 20 seconds left. Pressed further, Collins said the Colts and Titans coaches had "an agreement," which is sure to raise collusion questions.

workhorse said:
Since it is basically impossible for to predict that the Titans would get the ball inside the Colts 30 with less that 2:00 and the Colts having only 1 time out, I would have to say that it was a spur of the moment thing.

At that point in time the game was over and neither team wanted to get any other players hurt. Heck, Scaife had his liver lacerated and Chris Henry got hit so hard that the Bengals Chris Henry felt it.

The quarterback on one of the two teams involved intimated prior knowledge via agreement. That needs to be investigated. I'm not saying anything wrong was done. I'm saying there needs to be follow up. Now the Colts defenders will be cracking out the following defenses:

Nothing wrong/interpretation
Didn't affect the game
Everybody does it

As I noted during the 'spygate' nonsense, Goodell's actions would have long-term ramifications that were not good for the league. That putz has now made everything a questionable action. This is what happens when you completely overreact about a team's placement of a camera when, as the league has subsequently admitted when refusing to investigate the Jets and their allegedly filming the Patriots without permission, it's common practice for teams to film.

FreeTedWilliams · Jan 3, 2008

I think that we all agree that the COlts had every right not to play anyone that they didn't want to get hurt.

But, what we are talking about is a 6 point game, with two minutes left, and the Titans just sat on the ball, knowing that they didn't have to run another play BECAUSE FISCHER AND DUNGY HAD AN "AGREEMENT".

If you want to talk about the effect on the integrity of the game, this has fifty times more effect than anything in the "Spygate" did!!

Here's the gamelog...

Indianapolis Colts at 02:56
1-10-IND25 (2:56) J.Sorgi pass incomplete short middle to D.Aromashodu. Penalty on IND-C.Thorpe, Illegal Formation, declined.
2-10-IND25 (2:45) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass incomplete short right to D.Aromashodu.
3-10-IND25 (2:41) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass short right to C.Thorpe to IND 24 for -1 yards (V.Fuller).
4-11-IND24 (2:01) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass incomplete deep left to D.Aromashodu (C.Lowry).
Tennessee Titans at 01:54
1-10-IND24 (1:54) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 25 for -1 yards.
2-11-IND25 (1:15) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 26 for -1 yards.
3-12-IND26

38) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 27 for -1 yards

So if they called a TO after the last kneel, the Titans would have lined up for a 42 yard field goal that if they made it, would have put them up by 9 with :31 seconds left.

Of course, the kick could have been blocked and run back the other way for a TD, or Pasarchick could have handed off to Czonka, and then he fumbles and Herm Edwards picks it up and runs that in for a TD.

Another question is, why did it take the Colts 40 seconds to get off a snap after a 1 yard loss???

Then granted that the Titans were already in posistion for a short feild goal, but if the Colts, first off, get a snap off before those 40 seconds, they could have taken advantage of the 2:00 warning. So IF they played it straight, the Titans would have had the ball on the COlts 25 with say 2:02 left and the Colts had one timeout. Meaning they would have had to run plays, and anything can happen in a 6 point game. They would have to either make a first down or kick a field goal to end the game.

Of course, nothing will happen from this..............

BradyManny · Jan 3, 2008

Deus Irae said:
That putz has now made everything a questionable action.

Great point.

We've seen it with "noise gate" & "camera gate 2.0 (Mangina gets caught lying)". Back when the original spygate broke, if the media has any clue what they're talking about, if they have any perspective, if Goodell just gives BB a slap on the wrist, we're probably not talking about the Colts-Titans "agreement" right now. We're probably all just shrugging and saying "I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time".

workhorse · Jan 3, 2008

Deus Irae said:
The quarterback on one of the two teams involved intimated prior knowledge via agreement. That needs to be investigated. I'm not saying anything wrong was done. I'm saying there needs to be follow up. Now the Colts defenders will be cracking out the following defenses:

Nothing wrong/interpretation
Didn't affect the game
Everybody does it

As I noted during the 'spygate' nonsense, Goodell's actions would have long-term ramifications that were not good for the league. That putz has now made everything a questionable action. This is what happens when you completely overreact about a team's placement of a camera when, as the league has subsequently admitted when refusing to investigate the Jets and their allegedly filming the Patriots without permission, it's common practice for teams to film.

Actually he didn't mention prior knowledge. He said he was told over the headset that the Colts would not call a time out.

The article quotes Fisher as saying he knew Dungy's style and that's how he knew that the Colts would not call time out. Nothing about any verbal communication.

FreeTedWilliams said:
I think that we all agree that the COlts had every right not to play anyone that they didn't want to get hurt.

But, what we are talking about is a 6 point game, with two minutes left, and the Titans just sat on the ball, knowing that they didn't have to run another play BECAUSE FISCHER AND DUNGY HAD AN "AGREEMENT".

If you want to talk about the effect on the integrity of the game, this has fifty times more effect than anything in the "Spygate" did!!

Here's the gamelog...

Indianapolis Colts at 02:56
1-10-IND25 (2:56) J.Sorgi pass incomplete short middle to D.Aromashodu. Penalty on IND-C.Thorpe, Illegal Formation, declined.
2-10-IND25 (2:45) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass incomplete short right to D.Aromashodu.
3-10-IND25 (2:41) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass short right to C.Thorpe to IND 24 for -1 yards (V.Fuller).
4-11-IND24 (2:01) (Shotgun) J.Sorgi pass incomplete deep left to D.Aromashodu (C.Lowry).
Tennessee Titans at 01:54
1-10-IND24 (1:54) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 25 for -1 yards.
2-11-IND25 (1:15) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 26 for -1 yards.
3-12-IND26 38) K.Collins kneels, dead ball declared at IND 27 for -1 yards

So if they called a TO after the last kneel, the Titans would have lined up for a 42 yard field goal that if they made it, would have put them up by 9 with :31 seconds left.

Of course, the kick could have been blocked and run back the other way for a TD, or Pasarchick could have handed off to Czonka, and then he fumbles and Herm Edwards picks it up and runs that in for a TD.

Another question is, why did it take the Colts 40 seconds to get off a snap after a 1 yard loss???

Then granted that the Titans were already in posistion for a short feild goal, but if the Colts, first off, get a snap off before those 40 seconds, they could have taken advantage of the 2:00 warning. So IF they played it straight, the Titans would have had the ball on the COlts 25 with say 2:02 left and the Colts had one timeout. Meaning they would have had to run plays, and anything can happen in a 6 point game. They would have to either make a first down or kick a field goal to end the game.

Of course, nothing will happen from this..............

It took the Colts so long because they were trying to run the clock out too.

MoLewisrocks · Jan 3, 2008

sieglo said:
The fine over "Spygate" was ridiculously overblown.

The Jets should be fined commensurately for their own camera violations, not because the violation is significant itself, but because the league established a precedent with the Pats fine and they ought to stick to it.

The Colts behavior piping extra noise into the Dome is significantly worse than both the Jets' and Pats' camera violations.

I don't have any problem at all with this latest Colts/Titans issue. It is below Spygate and WAY below Noisegate on the scale of unsportsmanlike behavior.

And unsportsmanlike behavior is way below collusion on the scale of behaviors that undermine the integrity of the game. There was a playoff berth on the line for one team on the field and one team not on the field with the Colts. And a margin less than a TD. Not that Sorgi was likey to rally for that score, but that's not part of the debate. Any more than Fisher, who is even denser than I imagined, can claim his team would have just scored a 42 yard TD in the alternative.

Deus Irae · Jan 3, 2008

workhorse said:
Actually he didn't mention prior knowledge. He said he was told over the headset that the Colts would not call a time out.

The article quotes Fisher as saying he knew Dungy's style and that's how he knew that the Colts would not call time out. Nothing about any verbal communication.

Having an agreement is prior knowledge. Let's not get silly here. You're better than this. Whether Collins was drinking again and misspoke, whether there was an agreement, whether there was intent behind the agreement....

This is what needs to be discovered.

MoLewisrocks · Jan 3, 2008

Deus Irae said:
Having an agreement is prior knowledge. Let's not get silly here. You're better than this. Whether Collins was drinking again and misspoke, whether there was an agreement, whether there was intent behind the agreement....

This is what needs to be discovered.

Yup, and I know just the guy for the job. He's got a lie detector in his office and nothing to do this week...

OT: Colts and Titans Had "Agreement"

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