Brady vs Manning Debate to end this year?

Bertil said:

..and this, written after his first five seasons:

But it’s interesting to note that Brady compares favorably in numerous statistical categories to the greatest quarterbacks who ever played the game.
After five years in the league, compared with this group, Brady is:
• No. 1 in INTs per attempt (1:38.8)
• No. 2 in TD/INT ratio (1.9:1)
• No. 3 in passing efficiency (87.5)
• No. 4 in completions (1,243)
• No. 5 in completion percentage (61.6)
• No. 5 (t - Namath) in TD passes (97)
• No. 6 in passing yards (13,925)
• No. 7 in TDs per attempt (1:20.80)

Of course, Brady is also:
• No. 1 in championship victories (three)
• No. 1 in postseason appearances (nine)
• No. 1 in postseason victories (nine)
• No. 1 in playoff record (9-0)
• No. 1 in Super Bowl MVP awards (two)

If Brady is a "system quarterback," then that must be some kind of system.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=106

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Dang, I could have sworn Brady lost to the Colts in last year's AFCCG. Oh that's right, Brady is never the loser in those cases.

Without going through the whole thread:

1. There have been times I thought Manning was better than Brady. For example, last season Manning had mastered throwing on the run better than Brady ever has. And he was a little better at running the ball. And he had long seemed to be more accurate on deep throws.

But he SHOULD be a little better with three more years experience.

2. Now it's a year later. Brady has learned to rush more effectively too. He looks more accurate on deep throws. (Maybe I was wrong, and it really was a matter of having receivers who adjusted to the throws better. Or maybe he just has weapons that have made it worthwhile practicing the deep throws more.) Throwing on the run is a bit of a "who cares" as long as he's better at evading the rush and staying in the pocket than Manning is.

3. Bottom line:

A. For any given level of experience, Brady has been better than Manning. B. They're close enough that at specific times, it's been defensible to claim that Manning > Brady.
C. This year isn't one of those times.

mesoslo said:

If tom brady leads the patriots to an undefeated regular season(break manning single season touchdown record and help Randy Moss break the most touchdown record for a WR) and also win the superbowl. Will those things be used to cement Brady as the best QB ever and better than peyton manning.

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It will never be over even when they are done playing, they are both great QB's. you never know Manning might turn around and do the same thing next year, then that will make the debate even harder, both of these quarterback just continue to amaze year in and year out, lets just enjoy the ride while it lasts..

indycolts685 said:

you never know Manning might turn around and do the same thing next year, then that will make the debate even harder, both of these quarterback just continue to amaze year in and year out, lets just enjoy the ride while it lasts..

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Classic Manning defense - give the guy credit for something he's never done. Everybody used to say "once he wins the SB" before he ever did. If you want to give Peyton credit for throwing 50 TDs or leading his team to an undefeated season, let him do it first.

ColtinIraq said:

Dang, I could have sworn Brady lost to the Colts in last year's AFCCG. Oh that's right, Brady is never the loser in those cases.

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I could of sworn Brady has led his team to 3 titles in 6 years as a starter while Peyton only did it ONCE in his 9th season.

Defend a title, go undefeated, win 3 of 4 - then talk.

richpats said:

Classic Manning defense - give the guy credit for something he's never done. Everybody used to say "once he wins the SB" before he ever did. If you want to give Peyton credit for throwing 50 TDs or leading his team to an undefeated season, let him do it first.

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point well taken, I was just trying to give props to both qb's because they are both amazing..

This argument leads to a dead end with no outcome.

Until you arrive at an agreed set of criteria, and use only those criteria, no, you will never settle the argument. Why? Because they are both at that other-wordly level where it's probably impossible to determine if one is better or not. And at that level, who really cares?

As soon as one is declared a winner because of certain criteria, somebody will change the criteria. That's why it's important to have an agreed set of criteria and stick to them. You can't just cherry-pick. You have to take the good with the bad, add it all up, and accept the results.

Be careful if you are just a homer who wants to see Brady win. If that's your objective, it's not a worthy objective. If it's your objective to see the argument end, set down the criteria, get some Colts fan to agree to the criteria, and do the measurements. If you can't agree on criteria, no, you will never settle the argument.

FrontSeven said:

This argument leads to a dead end with no outcome.

Until you arrive at an agreed set of criteria, and use only those criteria, no, you will never settle the argument. Why? Because they are both at that other-wordly level where it's probably impossible to determine if one is better or not. And at that level, who really cares?

As soon as one is declared a winner because of certain criteria, somebody will change the criteria. That's why it's important to have an agreed set of criteria and stick to them. You can't just cherry-pick. You have to take the good with the bad, add it all up, and accept the results.

Be careful if you are just a homer who wants to see Brady win. If that's your objective, it's not a worthy objective. If it's your objective to see the argument end, set down the criteria, get some Colts fan to agree to the criteria, and do the measurements. If you can't agree on criteria, no, you will never settle the argument.

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I couldn't have said it better myself, Brady and Manning are in a class by themselves, I can't think of any other qb that even comes close.

richpats said:

I could of sworn Brady has led his team to 3 titles in 6 years as a starter while Peyton only did it ONCE in his 9th season.

Defend a title, go undefeated, win 3 of 4 - then talk.

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Sorry, but I doubt if you can cherry pick criteria like SB trophies and use that as your argument. Obviously the trophy is a team and organizational achievement, not an indivdual achievement.

It's fruitless to argue that way. Remember all the arguments that Elway was inferior to Montana because "he never won the big one"? Well, it turned out that he wasn't inferior at all. It turned out that we just needed to wait a little longer until his TEAM got it together. So what is your point that Manning has not won as many trophies worth? Not much. Drop it because it's a lame argument. Dan Marino was a great QB no matter what he and his team and organization failed to win.

I'd like to see a Patriots fan and Colts fan lay down agreed-upon criteria, weight them if necessary, and do the measuring without knowing the outcome in advance. That could serve some purpose, but obviously if your guy loses then you go changing the criteria to change the outcome, which is rather stupid, useless, and lame.

I can just see the problem in advance that nobody will agree upon the criteria. Therefore you cannot ever settle any arguments because you have no basis for settlement.

FrontSeven said:

Be careful if you are just a homer who wants to see Brady win. If that's your objective, it's not a worthy objective. If it's your objective to see the argument end, set down the criteria, get some Colts fan to agree to the criteria, and do the measurements. If you can't agree on criteria, no, you will never settle the argument.

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The difference between Brady and Manning is that Brady has proven that he didn't just luck out - he has climbed the mountain on 3 different occasions, leading his team on Super Bowl runs with both adequate play, dominant performances and several clutch efforts.

As for Manning, I'm not convinced that he simply became a great playoff QB over the course of one game without any good fortune. If he wants to be in Brady's company, he has to do it again, and then again.

ColtinIraq said:

Dang, I could have sworn Brady lost to the Colts in last year's AFCCG. Oh that's right, Brady is never the loser in those cases.

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Wake up... Read the article that's linked before you expose yourself as a fool!

It was written in '05. Then go look up the rest. They're still fun to read.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co..._Manning:_Complete_&_Unabridged,_Vol._II.html

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_109_A_textbook_study_in_Brady_vs._Manning.html

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_159_

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_74_The_Picasso_of_choke_artists.html

The point was NOT that Brady's not beatable (Yes, it's called a double-negative, try to decipher it), but that he's not just better than Manning, he's one of the All-Time Greats. Yes, we mostly all HATE Peyton here along with his sanctimonious Coach and Bully-baby GM, but for good reason. It's called rivalry. It's a good pastime and great theater. I don't think either team would be the same without the other.

Manning's made himself better since those articles were written and gotten the "Picasso of Choke Artists" tag removed from his tombstone. Good for him, but he still has a way to go before he catches Tom Brady.

FrontSeven said:

Sorry, but I doubt if you can cherry pick criteria like SB trophies and use that as your argument.

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I'm getting a "know-it-all" vibe from you. So what are these sacred criteria that we should use to compare?

Bertil said:

Good for him, but he still has a way to go before he catches Tom Brady.

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Peyton's SB win actually made his past playoff chokes look WORSE because most used the "inferior team" excuse for Peyton and his playoff choke jobs. He could have stepped up and won in '03, '04 and '05 but he didn't. And he needed a lot of luck just to finally pull through in '06.

both qb's are damn good so the only thing that can seperate them is the sb...now that brady has weapons to the level that peyton has had over the years we are seeing how good he can be but on the other hand peyton has had some injuries to his key players but still has the no.2 spot in the afc!!! although i would like to see him do it with no running game and subpar recievers like brady has had but thats not his fault...so it is still yet to be determined who is better but this year will go a long way to seeing who is best. if he can go through the playoffs and beat somebody good (because we all know its not too difficult to beat a team lead by Sexy Rexy) in the superbowl than the comparison will be a lot closer even though brady has 3 sb

Tommysgirl said:

When their careers are done, I fully believe Tom will have more Super Bowls than Manning and that will establish him as the best. Does anyone outside of the Miami area ever say Marino was better than Montana? Not a chance. Montana rose to challenges, Marino choked. Much like Brady and Manning.

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Well, using that logic, Terry Bradshaw is now considered better than either Brady or Manning.

How can anyone still call Manning a "choker" after leading a comeback in last year's AFCCG, with a bigger monkey on his back than anyone here could possibly imagine?

Fact is, Brady is only this year putting himself at a level to be considered with Manning in terms that historians deal with. I think Brady will go down as better overall, if the Patriots are able to hang onto Moss for a few years. But both are greats; there are no "chokers" in that twosome...

Nugget Type Of Fellow said:

Peyton all day everday! Brady, to me, is just a pretty boy who plays under Bill.

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Said the guy with a basketball avatar for a football forum

richpats said:

Peyton's SB win actually made his past playoff chokes look WORSE because most used the "inferior team" excuse for Peyton and his playoff choke jobs. He could have stepped up and won in '03, '04 and '05 but he didn't. And he needed a lot of luck just to finally pull through in '06.

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So true. Brady has NEVER needed luck in the postseason.

Boylanca said:

So, if someone disagrees with you they're a troll? There's some logic.

I dont understand why everyone has to debate Manning vs. Brady so much.

I'm a Colts fan, give me manning over brady. You all would take Brady over manning... Its a moot point... thats not going to change.

Both guys are going to go down as possibly the 2 best to ever play the game. No point in trying to seperate which one is better, IMO.

And I find it interesting how all of you rip on manning for being in commercials when Brady is on the front of fashion magazines.

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Read before you post. How's that for logic? The poster I'm responding to is a troll based on what he says.

If this thread is a moot point, then go away. Obviously, you have an opinion and that's fine, but IMO, Brady is a superior athlete to Manning which makes Brady the better QB.

Michigan Dave said:

Yes. If I have a 110 rating in domes, and you have a 100 rating, my rating in domes is higher, correct? Now if I have an 85 rating outdoors and you have an 80 rating, my rating outdoors is higher, correct?

Now if you play the bulk of your games in domes, and the bulk of my games are played outdoors, your rating would be higher because you would have a larger amount of higher-rated games factored into your numbers. For example, if you play 10 games of a season in domes, and 6 outdoors, and for the sake of easy math the numbers are the same, you would have 100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,80,80,80,80,80,80 as your season ratings for an average of: 92.5. If I play 14 games outdoors, and 2 in domes, I would have 85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,85,110,110,110,110 to be factored in, for an average of 91.25.

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Aha, I knew I wasn't getting something there, thanks for the heads up, to Hambone too. Its weighted more. Thanks, makes sense now.

Am I the only fan who doesn't really care about this debate? It's a question that can never be solved, and it's probably basically a tie, anyway. They're both great quarterbacks, neither is clearly better than the other, imo. Football's too much of a team sport to tease out who's better in a close situation like this. Baseball and basketball ... OK. Football not so much.

To me, Tom's more likeable because of Peyton's generally whiny demeanor, but if I were a Colts fan, I'm sure I'd dislike Tom for some reason or another ...