Charlie Weis to approach NEs coaching staff for help in the offseason - Pathetic

maverick4 said:

Notre Dome homers need to stop whining about the academic stuff. There are LOTS of quality academic schools that have good football programs, look at USC and Boston College.

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BC is a legit academic institution for athletes, and they have done a fantastic job, but you've got to be joking by throwing USC in there. USC's academic standards get thrown out the window when it comes to people that can run, throw and catch footballs. In 2006, ND graduation rate was 96%. USC's was 55%, so to compare those 2 institutions is laughable.

This same website shows the top-10 graduation rates, and I don't see a single top-25 team in there except for BC. It is riduculously difficult to maintain high academics standards and field a championship caliber football team.

Top 10 Football Grad Rates: Division I-A
Navy 98%
Wake Forest 96%
Notre Dame 96%
Clemson 94%
Vanderbilt 93%
Stanford 92%
Northwestern 92%
Air Force 91%
Army 91%
Rice 89%
Boston College 89%

http://stanford.scout.com/2/481569.html

QuiGon said:

Well at least Notre Dame hasn't ever humiliated themselves by scheduling a cupcake Div 1-AA (or, if you prefer, "playoff subdivision") school - and then lost to that team at home.

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That sucked. Yet somehow we rebounded to win 8 games and finish 2nd in our conference. This year sucked. I can't comprehend being 2-9.

You seem not to be aware that non-conference schedules are made years (if not decades) in advance. ND has annual games against USC, Michigan and Michigan State as well as regularly scheduling teams like Penn St., Tennessee, UCLA, BC or Nebraska. It's tough to sit here today and predict who will be a powerhouse in 2021.

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I'm well aware of when scheduling is done. But ND plays Michigan, USC, MSU, Purdue, Navy, BC, etc. pretty much every year. They only rotate a couple of games. I'm cool with that. They play a tough schedule, and play better teams in most years than a lot of other top programs. I've been very critical of the scheduling practices of Michigan, specifically. I hate that. My point here is that ND's schedule is on par with a conference school's. I wish more teams scheduled like Ohio State, to be honest.

TommyD4207 said:

Who's a better teacher than Bill Belichick?
I think it's probably the smartest thing he's done all year.

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hey, the guy can change, go for him...

if he can talk to BB and then win the BCS title next year, good for him

SoonerPatriot said:

I never said you had to have JUCOs to be successful. I did say good teams reccruit them to fill weaknesses, which is in fact true. ND doesn't recruit JUCOs at all, and frankly, they could use some about now.

Where is this talent you speak of? How many current ND players are 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th round NFL picks? I don't know that I could point to one.

Your "the talent is there" argument is decimiated by the fact that the players starting for ND now were ranked very low when they were recruited. I watch their games and see a bunch of stiffs who couldn't start at Oklahoma or Michigan, for that matter.

When you have stiffs, it's hard to beat anyone. When you do a subpar job of coaching (as Weis has admitted this year) and have stiffs, it's no surprise ND can't beat Purdue.

Also, if LSU wins a national title this year (a strong possibility) Miles won't be going to Michigan, regardless of his personal history there.

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1. JuCos: I think ND does the right thing by not recruiting them. Not all major programs use JuCos. Build a program.

2. I gave you the numbers. Look at ND's roster compared to Ohio State: OSU has 1 more 5 star, 11 more 4 stars, and 11 less 3 stars. That is comparable. The difference is the coaching the players receive at Ohio State.

3. Les Miles is essentially a done deal, NC or not. His wife was at our game Saturday and rumor has it she was house shopping. Some other former players told me that he was offered the job and accepted already.

QuiGon said:

Yeah... I'm really out of line by suggesting that big school athletics cut corner with classes

I think you're too close to the situation to get a good, unbiased look at things.

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If by too close you mean I have actually been a part of a major program, and have been around the game enough to know how other programs operate as well, and can tell you flat out that you are wrong there, then you are right.

Yes, there are some guys who use the school to get to the NFL. They are the exception. Most players don't end up in the NFL, and do use their degrees. The "dumb jock" stereotype is something that offends me.

BelichickFan said:

The class is currently ranked in the top three - his other classes have been very good too. His recruits will be Fr-Jr next year, only the Sr will be Willingham's slop. With mostly his guys, Charlie needs a good year next year.

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Yep, the Jr. and Sr. classes this year were recruited by Willingham and I've heard ND folks say that a big part of the reason Willingham was fired was not just his record but poor recruiting classes. They just saw the program going in the wrong direction. Good Division I teams usually have a core built around experienced Jrs. and Srs. I'm not sure how much of the current ND problems can be attributed to Weiss, and how much to poor recruiting under Willingham. That said, I haven't thought the ND team looked well coached this year.

QuiGon said:

Bullcrap. This ain't the 50's. Top recruits don't want to go to Universities where they actually have to do ridiculous things like attend classes and get decent grades.

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No, bullcrap to you! If you followed this entire thread, you'd have seen I already posted ND's recruiting record which pretty much backs up my statements.

http://rivals100.rivals.com/TeamRank.asp?postype=0&sort=0&year=2008

2002 - #24
2003 - #12
2004 - #32
2005 - #40
2006 - #8
2007 - #8
2008 - #1

SO BULLCRAP TO YOU BRUDDA!

Michigan Dave said:

1. JuCos: I think ND does the right thing by not recruiting them. Not all major programs use JuCos. Build a program.

2. I gave you the numbers. Look at ND's roster compared to Ohio State: OSU has 1 more 5 star, 11 more 4 stars, and 11 less 3 stars. That is comparable. The difference is the coaching the players receive at Ohio State.

3. Les Miles is essentially a done deal, NC or not. His wife was at our game Saturday and rumor has it she was house shopping. Some other former players told me that he was offered the job and accepted already.

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I don't think even Miles would stoop so low as to have a handshake deal under the table when he's trying to coach LSU to a title. If that's true, he's a bigger douche than I thought.

I love the college rumor thing though. When Oklahoma was trying to find a new coach in 1994 and 1999 my personal faves were the Mike Ditka and Mike Shannahan were spotted getting off a private jet at the OU airport rumors. Classic! Everyone has a source. Everyone thinks they're in the know.

Sigh...just because you recruit JUCOs doesn't mean you're not building a program. OU's 2000 national title team was quarterbacked by a JUCO. Stoops made that call very early, and putting a winner on the field early (thanks, Josh Heupel) has helped him build a pretty good program that I can assure you was in total dissaray when he arrived in 1999.

Never did I say it was a good idea solely to build a program through JUCOs. But...if you have a specific weakness say at left tackle, then going out and getting a JUCO to start while your 5 star stud redshirts is prudent thinking.

The classes ND has on the field now were ranked in the 30s and 40s when they recruited. Yes, sometimes you can polish a terd like other schools do, but if those guys who weren't ranked high to begin with fail to develop because of the kind of instability ND has had in recent years, or lack of quality coaching, or because they weren't very good to begin with, you're in trouble. Not sure how much clearer one can get on that point.

SoonerPatriot said:

I don't think even Miles would stoop so low as to have a handshake deal under the table when he's trying to coach LSU to a title. If that's true, he's a bigger douche than I thought.

I love the college rumor thing though. When Oklahoma was trying to find a new coach in 1994 and 1999 my personal faves were the Mike Ditka and Mike Shannahan were spotted getting off a private jet at the OU airport rumors. Classic! Everyone has a source. Everyone thinks they're in the know.

Sigh...just because you recruit JUCOs doesn't mean you're not building a program. OU's 2000 national title team was quarterbacked by a JUCO. Stoops made that call very early, and putting a winner on the field early (thanks, Josh Heupel) has helped him build a pretty good program that I can assure you was in total dissaray when he arrived in 1999.

Never did I say it was a good idea solely to build a program through JUCOs. But...if you have a specific weakness say at left tackle, then going out and getting a JUCO to start while your 5 star stud redshirts is prudent thinking.

The classes ND has on the field now were ranked in the 30s and 40s when they recruited. Yes, sometimes you can polish a terd like other schools do, but if those guys who weren't ranked high to begin with fail to develop because of the kind of instability ND has had in recent years, or lack of quality coaching, or because they weren't very good to begin with, you're in trouble. Not sure how much clearer one can get on that point.

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I don't have qualms with what Stoops did, it paid off. I just think the Bill Snyder approach is a little off to me. I earned my stripes through the Michigan program, which is about as old school as it gets. We've had 2 JuCos that I can remember. Russell Shaw started at WR for the 97 title team, and Austin Panter is on this year's team as a backup LB.

Miles? It's more than speculation. An assistant coach that I know has been contacted by Miles to stay on staff. Now, if he wins the NC, and his salary jumps by $1,000,000, well, that may be interesting to see if he'll go back on the deal. Who knows. Miles is no stranger to Ann Arbor, and I think he'd be a great addition to the program. We need new blood for sure. The best thing going for us is the quarter billion dollar stadium expansion. We have to hire someone that will sell those $85K suites. With better coaching, the talent has never been a question at Michigan to reach an even higher level.

QuiGon said:

BC is a legit academic institution for athletes, and they have done a fantastic job, but you've got to be joking by throwing USC in there. USC's academic standards get thrown out the window when it comes to people that can run, throw and catch footballs. In 2006, ND graduation rate was 96%. USC's was 55%, so to compare those 2 institutions is laughable.

This same website shows the top-10 graduation rates, and I don't see a single top-25 team in there except for BC. It is riduculously difficult to maintain high academics standards and field a championship caliber football team.

Top 10 Football Grad Rates: Division I-A
Navy 98%
Wake Forest 96%
Notre Dame 96%
Clemson 94%
Vanderbilt 93%
Stanford 92%
Northwestern 92%
Air Force 91%
Army 91%
Rice 89%
Boston College 89%

http://stanford.scout.com/2/481569.html

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This is 2005 data. I believe BC Football is now(2006) #3 in NCAA1. See link below.

http://bceagles.cstv.com/genrel/100307aaa.html

newbie_but_oldie said:

why is it pathetic to realize your weaknesses and seek the best for help? sounds smart to me.

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i agree 100 percent.makes perfect sense to me to get all the help you can get .

Michigan Dave said:

I don't have qualms with what Stoops did, it paid off. I just think the Bill Snyder approach is a little off to me. I earned my stripes through the Michigan program, which is about as old school as it gets. We've had 2 JuCos that I can remember. Russell Shaw started at WR for the 97 title team, and Austin Panter is on this year's team as a backup LB.

Miles? It's more than speculation. An assistant coach that I know has been contacted by Miles to stay on staff. Now, if he wins the NC, and his salary jumps by $1,000,000, well, that may be interesting to see if he'll go back on the deal. Who knows. Miles is no stranger to Ann Arbor, and I think he'd be a great addition to the program. We need new blood for sure. The best thing going for us is the quarter billion dollar stadium expansion. We have to hire someone that will sell those $85K suites. With better coaching, the talent has never been a question at Michigan to reach an even higher level.

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I don't care for the Snyder approach either, but it worked. He also coupled it with playing Division I-AA teams to build up his teams' confidence.

The LSU boosters and admins will throw all kinds of money at Miles to stay if they win it all. A million dollar increase would be the very beginning. The SEC folks are pretty ravenous when it comes to winning and when they like someone, they're inclined to keep them. That said, Michigan has some money too.

I agree. Michigan will continue to be an easy sell to recruits, unless they don't like cold weather.

Michigan Dave said:

That sucked. Yet somehow we rebounded to win 8 games and finish 2nd in our conference.

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Well that's what happens when an average team gets to play the likes of Eastern Michigan, Northwestern and Minnesota. They get an inflated record.

Michigan Dave said:

I'm well aware of when scheduling is done. But ND plays Michigan, USC, MSU, Purdue, Navy, BC, etc. pretty much every year.

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Except for BC, that's reasonably accurate. They hadn't played them in several years before this year. But I do believe they have something like a 20-year commitment.

Michigan Dave said:

They only rotate a couple of games. I'm cool with that. They play a tough schedule, and play better teams in most years than a lot of other top programs. I've been very critical of the scheduling practices of Michigan, specifically. I hate that. My point here is that ND's schedule is on par with a conference school's. I wish more teams scheduled like Ohio State, to be honest.

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I don't understand what you mean here... OSU non-conference games this year included Youngstown, Akron and Kent St... are you saying you wish more team did those sorts of things..?

PatriotsReign said:

No, bullcrap to you! If you followed this entire thread, you'd have seen I already posted ND's recruiting record which pretty much backs up my statements.

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A recruiting record is nothing more than a prediction about what good high schoolers have gone where. It has no more validity that the idiots that give draft day grades and talk about how brilliant San Diego was to select Ryan Leaf or Cincy was to select "Big Daddy" Wilkerson.

PATRIOT64 said:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/ncaa/11/19/notredame.patriots.ap/index.html

Charlie seems to be so embarrased by his coaching performance at Notre Dame that he will be heading back to NE in the offseason to discuss what he is doing wrong and what coaching techniques he is missing - does he not have the talent to figure it out himself without help from BB and staff?.

Charlie can you say 'No Tom Brady' and 'No Brady Quinn' to carry your sorry fat arse to success? - Now you got to do it will all JAGS,lets see what your brain can figure out since ND dumped all that money in your lap for what - and embarrasing 1 win season?

I always thought Charlie was as good as the talent surrounding him as OC and HC ,now you can easily see he was overated as the OC here IMO.

Brady Quinn and Tom Brady made his offensive plays look good - not so much him being a genius as so many former Patriots coaching staff members feel once they are on thier own.

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You dont look to bright to call the coach who mentored Brady to his sucesses a sorry arse...

patriotsdynasty12189 said:

You dont look to bright to call the coach who mentored Brady to his sucesses a sorry arse...

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That is ridiculous. Brady is not a product of Weis. Weis helped, but Brady did more for Weis than Weis did for Brady.

BelichickFan said:

Belichick talks to his friends in the offseason. Saban, Groh, etc. Nothing wrong with that.

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I didn't know Saban was a friend of his!!!!! He will probably be seeking some help too after his stellar year as the savior of Alabama. They are about ready to kill him.

i don' like this. that man is a good coach.

i've read eelsewhere that for college coaches the, #1 variable is the quality of the recruits. if that is the case then weis is playing willingham's team. the weis teams won't arrive as juniors for two more years.

but i wonder about his recruiting. his future (like other college coaches) is affected by decisions made by teenagers, maybe 18.

IMHO nfl coaches, even belichick, chat with each other amd maybe visit a counterpart. this may be more the case than we think--some of these guys coached or played together in college/other nfl teams previously. you've read references to ("the coaching fraternity").
if the rules allow a coach to meet with other coaches, i'd dang sure take advantage. heck, patriots and Fighting Irish don't play each other.

for sure, Belichick has other teams' playbooks. further, i'm certain that weis took the 2006 playbook when he left. maybe BB has steelers' playbook from 2005.
problem is, cowher's gone. seems to me the new coach is playing different schemes. so cowher's book is worthless except one coach can can get a different coach's ideas on a play. the new steelers coach maybe has a new playbook for 2007. they all do.

lay off weis. ND made a ten-year commitment to him. he ain't going nowhere

patriotsdynasty12189 said:

You dont look to bright to call the coach who mentored Brady to his sucesses a sorry arse...

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I heard a comment by some analyst (not sure who) about what Weiss' problem is.

He said that Weiss never really learned how to scout talent for college. He is taking too much of an NFL approach to the kids. He stated that when you recruit a kid who plays OL in HS; by the time he comes to college and starts weight training and finishes growing; he may be too skinny to be a OL and needs to move to TE.

Deal is most evident with QBs. How many guys are there in NFL who used to be HS QBs and they got moved to CB, WR or other positions. At HS level the best physical skilled guy is a QB; but not every HS QB gets to be a college QB. 25% at best. So all those talented players have to move to another position somewhere if they want to see playing time.

So analyst said that Weiss is too busy trying to recruit round pegs to round holes. when in reality he needs to recruit a round peg to go into a square hole - or round the corners off the square peg as he develops.

Anyway.........if this is his problem. Consulting with BB may not get him very much.

BB has a bit of college info from his dad at Navy; but recruiting for the Navy is a bit different than any other college anyway. Other than that I dont think BB did much college time to give weiss many recruiting and analysis tips.

I think what it all comes down to, Patriot-64, is that this would be a much better world if leaders in ALL walks of life realized that they could always learn more instead of being scared to admit that they didn't have all the answers.

Belichick, for one, is secure enough in his self-image to actively (and very publicly) seek counsel from fellow coaches during the offseason. Incredibly, there are those who see such a thing as a sign of weakness or who call it "pathetic".