Six wide receivers

Deus Irae said:

We need to stop pretending here. The Patriots lost that game because the defense didn't show up in the 3rd quarter.

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We all know the real reason we lost that game was because we didn't resign Deion Branch. I'm kidding of course.

Deus Irae said:

We need to stop pretending here. The Patriots lost that game because the defense didn't show up in the 3rd quarter.

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Agreed. Just as long as we stop pretending that one more 1st down wouldn't have won the game for us as well.

So if the Defense had "showed up" for the entire 2nd half - OR - the offense had, say, completed just one more pass, we would have won the game.

We're still debating which part of the team was most responsible for losing the AFC title game? There is no denying that both units didn't do their job. Why does it matter who didn't do their job more?

JoeSixPat said:

Agreed. Just as long as we stop pretending that one more 1st down wouldn't have won the game for us as well.

So if the Defense had "showed up" for the entire 2nd half - OR - the offense had, say, completed just one more pass, we would have won the game.

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When you set out to "assign blame" for a loss, you don't blame the team that played well but made routine 'imperfections'.

In this case, the Patriots offense put up more points than the Patriots season average, and did that in the AFC Championship game. The teams also essentially split the TOP despite the poor defensive showing by NE, NE only punted one time more than Indianapolis did, and the team scored more times than it was forced to punt.

Since nobody is perfect, pretty much any team game will result in mistakes by all aspects of a team. However, to talk about the offense not getting a first down on a series in the fourth quarter as being worthy of 'blame' when the defense gave up points on 4 consecutive drives is simply being disingenuous.

Assign 'blame' all you want, but don't pretend that it wasn't the defense that cost this team the game. When it comes to apportioning the 'blame' pie (disregarding injuries and illness in the process), Defense gets a huge wedge and the offense only gets a sliver.

We had no offense for the second half.

The defense had played more plays than any in the playoffs. They had the flu. The were undermanned by injuries at LB and S. We were playing Baker, Alexander and Hawkins!!! The defense was playing against a no-huddle offense that was having its best day ever. And yes, the it was THE DEFENSE that failed. They need to stop Manning and the colts.

HOWEVER, it would have nice if the offense could have done anything at all. The offense was not even able to run a little clock off. The passing game was aweful and the running game was non-existent. But yes, it was the defense that allowed the points.

What was the reaction of the Front Office? Yes, they addressed the issue of lack of depth on the defense. Thomas and Meriweather were brought in.

But the Front Office addressed the REAL problem. Morris, Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Kyle Brady and Washington were brought in. They may still bring in an additional running back. I would have drafted one at #28.

BOTTOM LINE
The defense was at fault. However, they played as well as they were capable of playing. They were clearly outmanned by Manning's offense. They need just a little bit of help from the offesne. There was none to be had. The defense was on their own, and not up to the job.

And BTW, setting up for a field goal on 3rd down with 5 minutes left yo tie the game was the single largest vote of no confidence I've seen in some time by an OC for the patriots.

mgteich said:

We had no offense for the second half.

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The offense scored 14 points in the first half on two scoring drives. It scored 13 points in the second half on 3 scoring drives. That's not having "no offense".

mgteich said:

The defense had played more plays than any in the playoffs. They had the flu. The were undermanned by injuries at LB and S. We were playing Baker, Alexander and Hawkins!!! The defense was playing against a no-huddle offense that was having its best day ever. And yes, the it was THE DEFENSE that failed. They need to stop Manning and the colts.

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I'm with you 100% on this. The team was ravaged by injury and illness, particularly on defense. However, it was the defense which let the team down as a result. Were I assigning blame, I'd begin with injury/illness as the greatest culprit. However, that wasn't where people were going with this nonsense about the offense being to blame.

mgteich said:

HOWEVER, it would have nice if the offense could have done anything at all. The offense was not even able to run a little clock off. The passing game was aweful and the running game was non-existent. But yes, it was the defense that allowed the points.

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This is not true. The time of possession difference for the entire game was just 2 minutes. New England had a 2 minute edge in the first half and Indianapolis had a 4 minute edge in the second half. Now, if you want to talk about the playcalling for the offense, I'm with you. Indianapolis was selling out against the run and New England elected to try to pass as a result instead of killing the clock by running anyway, which might also have worn down that small Colts defense. But that's a coaching decision, and it's not on the offense.

mgteich said:

What was the reaction of the Front Office? Yes, they addressed the issue of lack of depth on the defense. Thomas and Meriweather were brought in.

But the Front Office addressed the REAL problem. Morris, Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Kyle Brady and Washington were brought in. They may still bring in an additional running back. I would have drafted one at #28.

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Wide receiver wasn't the real problem, although it was the greater weakness. There is a difference. The real problem was that the Patriots defense wasn't able to stop the very offense which it must stop every year in order to get to the Super Bowl. That same offense had carved up the Patriots during the regular season, in New England. In that game, the Colts offense scored on all 3 real possessions in the first half (the fourth 'possession' was just a kneel down with 16 seconds left in the half), and would also have scored on its first possession in the second half had Vinatieri not missed a field goal. The ensuing drive resulted in a punt for the Colts and then they scored another touchdown right after that.

In other words, the Colts scored on 4 of their first 6 drives in that game, and would have been 5 for 6 had the Vinatieri not missed from 37 yards out. The Patriots defense simply could not stop the Colts offense last season, whether it was playoffs or regular season.

mgteich said:

BOTTOM LINE
The defense was at fault. However, they played as well as they were capable of playing. They were clearly outmanned by Manning's offense. They need just a little bit of help from the offesne. There was none to be had. The defense was on their own, and not up to the job.

And BTW, setting up for a field goal on 3rd down with 5 minutes left yo tie the game was the single largest vote of no confidence I've seen in some time by an OC for the patriots.

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The defense was a fault, which is what my point was. The offense did not help out as much as any of us would have liked. The coaching staff coached scared and stupidly in a way I'd never seen before from a BB team. You can believe me when I tell you that I was cursing about the coaching much more than I was cursing the defense during the game, but that wasn't the issue put in play in this thread.

However, again, despite the lack of confidence you opine about, and despite the subsequent hunt for receivers, that Patriots offense found a way to score 3 times in the second half even though the play calling was terrible in many key situations. Frankly, I thought the coaching staff lost the game by making terrible decisions at halftime and not adjusting properly during the rest of the game. A BB team was clearly outcoached by Tony Dungy and company and that, to me, was the biggest travesty and shock of that game. I'd never even thought of the possibility that the coaching edge in a Colts/Patriots matchup would have gone to the Colts.

Deus Irae said:

I thought the coaching staff lost the game by making terrible decisions at halftime and not adjusting properly during the rest of the game. A BB team was clearly outcoached by Tony Dungy and company and that, to me, was the biggest travesty and shock of that game. I'd never even thought of the possibility that the coaching edge in a Colts/Patriots matchup would have gone to the Colts.

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I agree about the coaching (Dungy decided well and BB uncharacterictically did not) but part of that coaching crit goes against the offensive decisions where BB & the OC did not run down the clock but attempted clock saving INC pases instead. It's not obvious what defensive coaching options BB had other than using the O to keep the depleted, flu weakened D off the field by sustaining offensive drives.

In true Patriots spirit, it was a team loss. Offense, defense and coaching.

Deus Irae said:

The offense scored 14 points in the first half on two scoring drives. It scored 13 points in the second half on 3 scoring drives. That's not having "no offense".




I'm with you 100% on this. The team was ravaged by injury and illness, particularly on defense. However, it was the defense which let the team down as a result. Were I assigning blame, I'd begin with injury/illness as the greatest culprit. However, that wasn't where people were going with this nonsense about the offense being to blame.




This is not true. The time of possession difference for the entire game was just 2 minutes. New England had a 2 minute edge in the first half and Indianapolis had a 4 minute edge in the second half. Now, if you want to talk about the playcalling for the offense, I'm with you. Indianapolis was selling out against the run and New England elected to try to pass as a result instead of killing the clock by running anyway, which might also have worn down that small Colts defense. But that's a coaching decision, and it's not on the offense.



Wide receiver wasn't the real problem, although it was the greater weakness. There is a difference. The real problem was that the Patriots defense wasn't able to stop the very offense which it must stop every year in order to get to the Super Bowl. That same offense had carved up the Patriots during the regular season, in New England. In that game, the Colts offense scored on all 3 real possessions in the first half (the fourth 'possession' was just a kneel down with 16 seconds left in the half), and would also have scored on its first possession in the second half had Vinatieri not missed a field goal. The ensuing drive resulted in a punt for the Colts and then they scored another touchdown right after that.

In other words, the Colts scored on 4 of their first 6 drives in that game, and would have been 5 for 6 had the Vinatieri not missed from 37 yards out. The Patriots defense simply could not stop the Colts offense last season, whether it was playoffs or regular season.




The defense was a fault, which is what my point was. The offense did not help out as much as any of us would have liked. The coaching staff coached scared and stupidly in a way I'd never seen before from a BB team. You can believe me when I tell you that I was cursing about the coaching much more than I was cursing the defense during the game, but that wasn't the issue put in play in this thread.

However, again, despite the lack of confidence you opine about, and despite the subsequent hunt for receivers, that Patriots offense found a way to score 3 times in the second half even though the play calling was terrible in many key situations. Frankly, I thought the coaching staff lost the game by making terrible decisions at halftime and not adjusting properly during the rest of the game. A BB team was clearly outcoached by Tony Dungy and company and that, to me, was the biggest travesty and shock of that game. I'd never even thought of the possibility that the coaching edge in a Colts/Patriots matchup would have gone to the Colts.

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Great points, and I agree with PWP: that was a team loss.

I'm glad that the offensive (literally) coaching has been taken to task.

The FO should also take a bite (or more) from the blame pie, for providing lousy backups at LB and DB, and for not acquiring another WR on draft weekend. And for throwing away our 5th-rounder in '07 for Doug Gabriel.

And MGT is right, too. I would have kept Meion for Weeks 11 - 16, plus POs. Who knows, maybe he (or Dave Thomas, or Grahambo) would have been open on 3rd and 4. At the very least, the FO should have insisted that DJ Hackett be included from Seattle.

As for the premise of the thread, I feel that 6 WRs is the way to go at this time. Plus 3 TEs, 5 RBs, 2 QBs and 9 OLmen = 25.

Deus Irae said:

When you set out to "assign blame" for a loss, you don't blame the team that played well but made routine 'imperfections'.

In this case, the Patriots offense put up more points than the Patriots season average, and did that in the AFC Championship game. The teams also essentially split the TOP despite the poor defensive showing by NE, NE only punted one time more than Indianapolis did, and the team scored more times than it was forced to punt.

Since nobody is perfect, pretty much any team game will result in mistakes by all aspects of a team. However, to talk about the offense not getting a first down on a series in the fourth quarter as being worthy of 'blame' when the defense gave up points on 4 consecutive drives is simply being disingenuous.

Assign 'blame' all you want, but don't pretend that it wasn't the defense that cost this team the game. When it comes to apportioning the 'blame' pie (disregarding injuries and illness in the process), Defense gets a huge wedge and the offense only gets a sliver.

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I never said the defense played well in the 2nd half. They were sick and tired - that was clear.

But it can't be denied that ONE more first down - i.e ONE COMPLETED PASS allows us to run out the clock with a win.

So rather than expecting the defense to step up on the dozens of offensive attacks thrown at them by the Colts I can't ignore the fact that just ONE more pass/one more first down is all we needed.

That's a lot more tangible to me than breaking down and analyzing an entire 2nd half of defensive play.

JoeSixPat said:

But it can't be denied that ONE more first down - i.e ONE COMPLETED PASS allows us to run out the clock with a win.

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I agree with this, one hundred percent. It's the mistaken follow-up where one goes from "that would have helped" to "that's the offense's fault" that I've been disagreeing with from the start.


Let me pose a hypothetical to see if this helps, and let's say that the Patriots won the game 7-3 because New England, after trailing 3-0, scored on a 97 yard Maroney run with 5 seconds left in the game.

Now, is the defense that only surrendered 7 points all game after allowing more than 20ppg all season at fault, or does the fault lie mainly with Manning and company only putting up 3 points instead of the usual 26+ points?

OK, blame the offensive playcalling by the offensive coordinator in the last quarter of the game. To me, he is the leader of the offense.

Deus Irae said:

The offense scored 14 points in the first half on two scoring drives. It scored 13 points in the second half on 3 scoring drives. That's not having "no offense".




I'm with you 100% on this. The team was ravaged by injury and illness, particularly on defense. However, it was the defense which let the team down as a result. Were I assigning blame, I'd begin with injury/illness as the greatest culprit. However, that wasn't where people were going with this nonsense about the offense being to blame.




This is not true. The time of possession difference for the entire game was just 2 minutes. New England had a 2 minute edge in the first half and Indianapolis had a 4 minute edge in the second half. Now, if you want to talk about the playcalling for the offense, I'm with you. Indianapolis was selling out against the run and New England elected to try to pass as a result instead of killing the clock by running anyway, which might also have worn down that small Colts defense. But that's a coaching decision, and it's not on the offense.



Wide receiver wasn't the real problem, although it was the greater weakness. There is a difference. The real problem was that the Patriots defense wasn't able to stop the very offense which it must stop every year in order to get to the Super Bowl. That same offense had carved up the Patriots during the regular season, in New England. In that game, the Colts offense scored on all 3 real possessions in the first half (the fourth 'possession' was just a kneel down with 16 seconds left in the half), and would also have scored on its first possession in the second half had Vinatieri not missed a field goal. The ensuing drive resulted in a punt for the Colts and then they scored another touchdown right after that.

In other words, the Colts scored on 4 of their first 6 drives in that game, and would have been 5 for 6 had the Vinatieri not missed from 37 yards out. The Patriots defense simply could not stop the Colts offense last season, whether it was playoffs or regular season.




The defense was a fault, which is what my point was. The offense did not help out as much as any of us would have liked. The coaching staff coached scared and stupidly in a way I'd never seen before from a BB team. You can believe me when I tell you that I was cursing about the coaching much more than I was cursing the defense during the game, but that wasn't the issue put in play in this thread.

However, again, despite the lack of confidence you opine about, and despite the subsequent hunt for receivers, that Patriots offense found a way to score 3 times in the second half even though the play calling was terrible in many key situations. Frankly, I thought the coaching staff lost the game by making terrible decisions at halftime and not adjusting properly during the rest of the game. A BB team was clearly outcoached by Tony Dungy and company and that, to me, was the biggest travesty and shock of that game. I'd never even thought of the possibility that the coaching edge in a Colts/Patriots matchup would have gone to the Colts.

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mgteich said:

OK, blame the offensive playcalling by the offensive coordinator in the last quarter of the game. To me, he is the leader of the offense.

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I would like to know how much of that play calling was on McDaniels' shoulders. I defended him for most of the season, given the circumstances, but that fourth quarter made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I wonder if BB had any input or if I have to start giving the detractors a bit more credence than I previously had regarding this.

mgteich said:

OK, blame the offensive playcalling by the offensive coordinator in the last quarter of the game. To me, he is the leader of the offense.

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Yeah - no matter what anyone said about 2006 being statistically as good or better than other years it was clear our personnel was lacking - but so too was the playcalling - which in the past both on offense and defense has been exceptionally good about developing gameplans to cover up deficiencies.

The OC's playcalling left a lot to be desired for me all season and I actually found common ground with NEM on that.

But I'll take a fresh wait and see approach with McDaniel this year to see if he's learned from his mistakes and improves his performance.

I don't know how much Josh has learned. However, he should be able to handle the load with help from Tom and Vinnie. After all, bb said there were no excuses for the offense after the 2006 draft. This year we added Morris, Kyle Brady, Moss, Stallworth, Welker and Washington (and Rivers as a bonus). There are really no excuses this year.

JoeSixPat said:

Yeah - no matter what anyone said about 2006 being statistically as good or better than other years it was clear our personnel was lacking - but so too was the playcalling - which in the past both on offense and defense has been exceptionally good about developing gameplans to cover up deficiencies.

The OC's playcalling left a lot to be desired for me all season and I actually found common ground with NEM on that.

But I'll take a fresh wait and see approach with McDaniel this year to see if he's learned from his mistakes and improves his performance.

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PatsWickedPissah said:

Some arguements FOR 6 wides:

...

4. Wideouts get injured; this crew has an injury record

Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Caldwell, Washington, Gaffney (if back in 4 weeks)

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Agreed. Add...

5. Moss and Gaffney are already injured. Moss hasn't played a game yet. 6 WR lets you deactivate one or both of them week to week and not rush them (particularly the hammy). Why worry about a possible injury to your old LBs when you already have injuries at WR. Go with depth that will actually be used.

In fact, I'm increasingly expecting Moss not to play week 1.

Vern said:

Agreed. Add...

5. Moss and Gaffney are already injured. Moss hasn't played a game yet. 6 WR lets you deactivate one or both of them week to week and not rush them (particularly the hammy). Why worry about a possible injury to your old LBs when you already have injuries at WR. Go with depth that will actually be used.

In fact, I'm increasingly expecting Moss not to play week 1.

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I like your point in a different thread that keeping 6 wideouts, e.g. Reche, whomever, gives the Pats the OPTION to trade one of them later. A trade post cutdown to 53 is more viable once a desperate team realizes that they did not find an acceptable guy via cuts. This is especially cogent if the Pats are forced to put a whining Chad Jackson on the 53 once he comes off PUP because he WOULD win a grievance if filed after being placed on IR while healthy.

mgteich said:

I can't see us cutting Caldwell or Washington.

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troy brown. reche caldwell. jabbar gaffney. chad jackson. randy moss. bam phillips. donte stallworth. kelley washington. wes welker. chris dunlap. good grief, who's his agent? letting him sign with a team that's 7-deep at WR.

jackson, brown, and moss may all start on PUP. bam goes back to the practice (taxi) squad.
looks like 5 WRs on opening day to me.

ilduce06410 said:

jackson, brown, and moss may all start on PUP. looks like 5 WRs on opening day to me.

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I may be wrong, but I don't think that Moss can be placed on PUP. As is the case with Gaffney, it may be either the 53, IR, or Injury Settlement for Moss.