Wins = a team stat or QB stat?

sb1 · Dec 5, 2016

I think informed fans know that wins of course are a team stat.

But I think wins (along with SB rings) also are a much better way than stats to compare quarterback greatness to QBs in different eras. Stats are merely a product of the rules of the game that favor passing. Tom Brady "winning" all those games means he beat other teams whose QB also benefited from the same rules. That levels the playing field.

And Brady has won in different eras of the sport, before and after the Polian rule changes. And he has the stats too.

That's pretty freaking awesome.

yukon cornelius · Dec 5, 2016

totally a team stat

Ring 6 · Dec 5, 2016

Its both. Teams win games, but QBs are by far most responsible for winning, they have an inordinate amount of the success lying in their hands.
Over time, all the other things even out (supporting cast, injuries, etc) and wins is the most important stat for a QB. After all that is the reason you play, and stats accumulated while losing are totally useless.

fair catch fryar · Dec 5, 2016

Both, but the QB gets the credit.

mosslost · Dec 5, 2016

sb1 said:
I think informed fans know that wins of course are a team stat.

But I think wins (along with SB rings) also are a much better way than stats to compare quarterback greatness to QBs in different eras. Stats are merely a product of the rules of the game that favor passing. Tom Brady "winning" all those games means he beat other teams whose QB also benefited from the same rules. That levels the playing field.

And Brady has won in different eras of the sport, before and after the Polian rule changes. And he has the stats too.

That's pretty freaking awesome.

Bad QBs also have a disproportionate ability to LOSE games for their teams. So, longevity alone cannot account for have all those wins, it is obviously necessary to have longevity, but greatness at the QB position is probably mostly determined by wins. Both total number of wins but even more importantly win percentage combined with longevity.

yukon cornelius · Dec 5, 2016

QB gets too much credit, too much blame

teams win, teams lose......sometimes the QB plays into that a great deal, sometimes not so much

Tony2046 · Dec 5, 2016

sb1 said:
I think informed fans know that wins of course are a team stat.

But I think wins (along with SB rings) also are a much better way than stats to compare quarterback greatness to QBs in different eras. Stats are merely a product of the rules of the game that favor passing. Tom Brady "winning" all those games means he beat other teams whose QB also benefited from the same rules. That levels the playing field.

And Brady has won in different eras of the sport, before and after the Polian rule changes. And he has the stats too.

That's pretty freaking awesome.

I did this Brady vs Manning Comparison last year sometime. Notice how the Pats scored more points than the Manning led teams but have thrown less and ran more. So although the stats say Manning has more TD's et al ..., Brady was leading the team responsible for more points.

Ring 6 · Dec 5, 2016

yukon cornelius said:
QB gets too much credit, too much blame

teams win, teams lose......sometimes the QB plays into that a great deal, sometimes not so much

In the long run winning and losing is absolutely the best judgment of a QB. In a game, or even a year, maybe not.
The reason you play is to win, and in almost every game, the QB has the ability to win the game for his team, not even by playing great, but by making plays when the game is on the line.

An interesting side to this, is that if you look back at all of the greatest 'winners' at the QB position, almost every single one of them took over a team that sucked until they got there.

everlong · Dec 5, 2016

Team but when you breakdown that he has the highest win percentage when the defense gives up over 21 points and over 28 points, wins when throwing 50 or more passes, better road winning percentage than most of the top QBs at home, best winning percentage when tied or down by 8 or less in the 4th quarter........at some point it's trend that can't just be dismissed as team only.

Ice_Ice_Brady · Dec 5, 2016

Tony2046 said:
I did this Brady vs Manning Comparison last year sometime. Notice how the Pats scored more points than the Manning led teams but have thrown less and ran more. So although the stats say Manning has more TD's et al ..., Brady was leading the team responsible for more points.

View attachment 15002

Interceptions explain a lot of the difference between the two in terms of Wins/Losses with these comparisons. Bill Belichick explains the remainder.

Soul_Survivor88 · Dec 5, 2016

everlong said:
Team but when you breakdown that he has the highest win percentage when the defense gives up over 21 points and over 28 points, wins when throwing 50 or more passes, better road winning percentage than most of the top QBs at home, best winning percentage when tied or down by 8 or less in the 4th quarter........at some point it's trend that can't just be dismissed as team only.

Thread-winner right here....nuff said

Ring 6 · Dec 5, 2016

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
Interceptions explain a lot of the difference between the two in terms of Wins/Losses with these comparisons. Bill Belichick explains the remainder.

Tom Brady is the difference of why Tom Brady is better than Payton Manning.

BobDigital · Dec 5, 2016

Both. To me wins should be kept track of for the QB but it is a team game.

I see QB wins and Pitcher wins as much the same. Sometimes a pitcher gets a win he doesn't deserve sometimes he does great and loses but on the whole it seems to work itself out to be a fairly accurate representation along with stats and the eye test.

Look at the wins total for pitchers all time (adjust for era as pitchers use to pitch more the same you adjust for era in football). On the whole though you will find it a list that while not perfect is pretty accurate for all time best.

The football wins list (and win %) is even better as QBs start all the games generally unless injured so the QB wins list is more accurate.

Patsfanin Philly · Dec 5, 2016

I'd like to see another stat regarding interceptions, as at fault and not at fault. Baseball has the ERA so a pitcher doesn't get charged for a run scored based on an error. Why not have the same thing in football for an int that isn't the QB's fault, say one that hits the receiver in the chest and bounces up in the air for an int ( like Derek Anderson's throw last night) versus one that is just airmailed to the defensive player? It is rare that Brady throws an "a t fault" int like his lone one this year but many have hit the player in the chest or hands and gone up in the air being intercepted which is the receiver's fault. In contrast a great more than a few of Manning's were bad throws or to a DB,,,(just ask Ty Law or that 6 int game versus SD in prime time) ,,

Ring 6 · Dec 5, 2016

Patsfanin Philly said:
I'd like to see another stat regarding interceptions, as at fault and not at fault. Baseball has the ERA so a pitcher doesn't get charged for a run scored based on an error. Why not have the same thing in football for an int that isn't the QB's fault, say one that hits the receiver in the chest and bounces up in the air for an int ( like Derek Anderson's throw last night) versus one that is just airmailed to the defensive player? It is rare that Brady throws an "a t fault" int like his lone one this year but many have hit the player in the chest or hands and gone up in the air being intercepted which is the receiver's fault. In contrast a great more than a few of Manning's were bad throws or to a DB,,,(just ask Ty Law or that 6 int game versus SD in prime time) ,,

This is why football is not a game that can be analyzed with statistics like baseball.
Your idea now turns statistics into a judgment call. This is why PFF numbers and rating suck so bad, because they try to assign ratings and blame on each play without knowing what the responsibilities were.

I mean if you get a bunch of picks on tipped balls, and I never do, aren't I less of an Int QB because I avoid having by ball tipped by the DL? There are just so many different varaibles that make taking overall statistics and lumping them together to compare to another guy who played different teams with different guys on his side, under different gameplans, and in different situations, and add them into something of value. This is why passer rating is a joke of a stat.

Tony2046 · Dec 5, 2016

yukon cornelius said:
QB gets too much credit, too much blame

teams win, teams lose......sometimes the QB plays into that a great deal, sometimes not so much

Very true.

From watching the Do Your Job documentary we know that there were numerous coaches, assistants, players and maybe even some pink stripes that led to the famous "Malcom Go!!" moment and the subsequent historical interception.

So although I don't think we win a few of those big games without Brady (Compare 2007 to 2008) I know that a win is a team accomplishment.

But it is nice to know that Brady is the winningest QB and Peyton is not.

fourhour · Dec 5, 2016

Tony2046 said:
But it is nice to know that Brady is the winningest QB and Peyton is not.

And he plays for OUR team!

RobertWeathers · Dec 5, 2016

Of course wins are a team stat but there isn't a player who means more to the difference of winning and losing than a QB.

TB12 has done more of that than anyone.

I think it was Lynch who said yesterday that in his covo with TB12, Brady said that 90% of the wins are from the other team screwing up and staying out of negative plays.

While TB12 has 100s of big time plays, I bet the number of check-downs, line calls, audibles he has called that gets them out of bad or negative plays are in the 1000s.

Tony2046 · Dec 5, 2016

robertweathers said:
Of course wins are a team stat but there isn't a player who means more to the difference of winning and losing than a QB.

TB12 has done more of that than anyone.

I think it was Lynch who said yesterday that in his covo with TB12, Brady said that 90% of the wins are from the other team screwing up and staying out of negative plays.

While TB12 has 100s of big time plays, I bet the number of check-downs, line calls, audibles he has called that gets them out of bad or negative plays are in the 1000s.

I agree when the QB is Brady but would you give the same credit to Trent Dilfer?

RobertWeathers · Dec 5, 2016

Tony2046 said:
I agree when the QB is Brady but would you give the same credit to Trent Dilfer?

Clearly TB12's ability to make plays the QB position is at stratospheric level far beyond guys like Dilfer, Alex Smith or other "game managers".

With that said, Smith and Dilfer do deserve credit as when their teams have needed them to, they for the most part stay out of negative plays and provide their teams with a chance to win. You could say that Tom was like that in 2001 but BB kepts the coller on him as he was young and inexperienced. Clearly when the team NEEDED Tom to step up, BB knew he had it in him.

Obviously they do not have the skill set to make plays with the consistency of say a Brady, Elway, Montana or even a Derrick Carr.

Wins = a team stat or QB stat?

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