OT: Breaking news from this board: Pats might trade Bledsoe

Ivan said:

Has Bledsoe been traded yet?

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Finally, mercifully, yes; however, I have a really sick feeling that when training camp opens, our helmets will still have something other than Pat Patriot on them...

Kraft tried to stop us from trading Bledsoe because he was up Goodell's **** (butt)

fnordcircle said:

Kraft tried to stop us from trading Bledsoe because he was up Goodell's **** (butt)

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I'm honored and privileged.

Galeb said:

You're arguing against something different than what I'm actually saying. I'm not saying the Pats were always horrible. My argument is that before Kraft, more often than not, the Patriots didn't field a good team. You're calling a team "average" that made the playoffs at less than half the frequency that an average team should have. This doesn't mean that they never fielded good teams during that time period, but from a legacy/success standpoint, they were certainly in the bottom third of the league, a tier made up of mostly expansion teams.

The foundation of your argument was thoroughly squashed. Your perspective needs some re-evaluation.

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This is a pretty old article by Kerry Byrne that I always thought was fun. It's dated now (from 2008) so some of the rankings could shift, but not significantly. But I think they had a very good comment regarding the Patriots: looking at their 1960 - 2000 teams and their accomplishments, they looked extremely similar to the Cincinnati Bengals from 1968-2007.
A CHFF epic: all-time franchise rankings

The Patriots franchise from 1960 through 1988 (29 seasons) had a regular season record of 202-209-7. They also had the aforementioned 6 playoff appearances in 29 seasons. This is pretty much the definition of a mediocre team -- sometimes bad, sometimes good, but rarely upper echelon. A few good teams didn't make the playoffs: the 1964 team went 10-3-1, 1961 and 1962 had identical 9-4-1 teams miss the playoffs, the 1977 9-5 team and the 1980 10-6 teams missed the playoffs. The stinkers in that bunch were: 3-10-1 in 1967, 2-12 in 1970, 3-11 in 1972, 3-11 in 1975, 2-14 in 1981. 5 in 29 is more than we'd want, but it's not 100% terrible either when balanced out by the decent squads.

I think the perception of the Patriots as a laughingstock pre-Belichick/Brady or pre-Kraft teams is really based on the following two items:

1) The Sullivans and their clown-show, shoe-string operations as owners, and
2) The missing period outside of my analysis, the 1989-1993 teams, which were truly terrible, and included the disaster that was Victor Kiam and other scandals.

But the team itself was just meh, generally not horrible, but bottom third of the league as you put it sounds about right. Through that time period I think the Bucs and Cardinals were synonymous with a horrible franchise, but the Pats weren't that far above them.

Hammer of Thor said:

This is a pretty old article by Kerry Byrne that I always thought was fun. It's dated now (from 2008) so some of the rankings could shift, but not significantly. But I think they had a very good comment regarding the Patriots: looking at their 1960 - 2000 teams and their accomplishments, they looked extremely similar to the Cincinnati Bengals from 1968-2007.
A CHFF epic: all-time franchise rankings

The Patriots franchise from 1960 through 1988 (29 seasons) had a regular season record of 202-209-7. They also had the aforementioned 6 playoff appearances in 29 seasons. This is pretty much the definition of a mediocre team -- sometimes bad, sometimes good, but rarely upper echelon. A few good teams didn't make the playoffs: the 1964 team went 10-3-1, 1961 and 1962 had identical 9-4-1 teams miss the playoffs, the 1977 9-5 team and the 1980 10-6 teams missed the playoffs. The stinkers in that bunch were: 3-10-1 in 1967, 2-12 in 1970, 3-11 in 1972, 3-11 in 1975, 2-14 in 1981. 5 in 29 is more than we'd want, but it's not 100% terrible either when balanced out by the decent squads.

I think the perception of the Patriots as a laughingstock pre-Belichick/Brady or pre-Kraft teams is really based on the following two items:

1) The Sullivans and their clown-show, shoe-string operations as owners, and
2) The missing period outside of my analysis, the 1989-1993 teams, which were truly terrible, and included the disaster that was Victor Kiam and other scandals.

But the team itself was just meh, generally not horrible, but bottom third of the league as you put it sounds about right. Through that time period I think the Bucs and Cardinals were synonymous with a horrible franchise, but the Pats weren't that far above them.

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Thankfully, Tom Brady and a host of others have atoned for those laughingstock teams. In one year they did what no other Pats team had ever done and in an early three year stretch of the B&B Dynasty they equaled the accomplishments of the famed Oakland Raiders. Since then they've taken their place among the best ever. It was one hell of a ride.

Just another shot at the Sullivans: After a 27 year reign of incompetence, to add insult to when they were forced to sell the team, they didn't choose Bob Kraft, or Paul Fireman (owned Reebok). No they managed to choose someone who was a bigger bozo than they were, in Victor Kiam. So even walking out the door they managed to screw Patriots fans.

Just one more thought. It was true that once a decade the Pats DID manage to field a good team for 2 or 3 years. But if there is one thing we've learned over the last 20+ years of the Krafts ownership. The REAL skill that good management brings isn't putting together a good team. A few good drafts and finding a decent QB will do that for every team. No the REAL skill that good management brings is keeping those teams together as long as possible and transitioning it from "generation to generation". Coaches change, players come and go, but the so called "elite" teams all have one thing in common, and that is good stable management at the top.

Bob Kraft truly bungled Deflategate. He has said so himself. But that shouldn't wipe out over 20 years of overall great management of a franchise that had such a horrible history of ownership right up to the point that they bought the team.

Ken, I hope you're right. But we really won't know until our Hall of Fame coach and QB move on. Right now those two are the connection

patfanken said:

Just another shot at the Sullivans: After a 27 year reign of incompetence, to add insult to when they were forced to sell the team, they didn't choose Bob Kraft, or Paul Fireman (owned Reebok). No they managed to choose someone who was a bigger bozo than they were, in Victor Kiam. So even walking out the door they managed to screw Patriots fans.

Just one more thought. It was true that once a decade the Pats DID manage to field a good team for 2 or 3 years. But if there is one thing we've learned over the last 20+ years of the Krafts ownership. The REAL skill that good management brings isn't putting together a good team. A few good drafts and finding a decent QB will do that for every team. No the REAL skill that good management brings is keeping those teams together as long as possible and transitioning it from "generation to generation". Coaches change, players come and go, but the so called "elite" teams all have one thing in common, and that is good stable management at the top.

Bob Kraft truly bungled Deflategate. He has said so himself. But that shouldn't wipe out over 20 years of overall great management of a franchise that had such a horrible history of ownership right up to the point that they bought the team.

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(laughing) Billy Sullivan provided plenty of material for the local writers, mostly negative, usually entertaining...when he renamed it to Sullivan Stadium, Bud Collins wrote a Globe article starting: "SULLIVAN, MA - The Patriots etc. etc." accompanied by a drawing of a helmet with Billy Sullivan himself, donned in suit & tie, preparing to snap the ball...

BUD COLLINS; IT'S 1983, AND ALL IS WELL IN THE LAND OF SULLIVAN

skinnydog said:

Ken, I hope you're right. But we really won't know until our Hall of Fame coach and QB move on. Right now those two are the connection

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Bob got Bill (thanks for not taking the flight home, Bill Parcells) but I hope we don't need Mo Lewis to get the right guy in there again...

Actual Pats Fan said:

(laughing) Billy Sullivan provided plenty of material for the local writers, mostly negative, usually entertaining...when he renamed it to Sullivan Stadium, Bud Collins wrote a Globe article starting: "SULLIVAN, MA - The Patriots etc. etc." accompanied by a drawing of a helmet with Billy Sullivan himself, donned in suit & tie, preparing to snap the ball...

BUD COLLINS; IT'S 1983, AND ALL IS WELL IN THE LAND OF SULLIVAN

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Ahhh, Bud Collins, when the Sunday Globe was "must see" reading for every true sports fan, and talented, literate writing was the norm instead the exception. I regret only that the link was for the abstract and not the full article. I had almost forgotten there was a time when good writing and command of the language was a requirement to be a reporter.

Thanks APF for the tease. It left me wanting more

skinnydog said:

Ken, I hope you're right. But we really won't know until our Hall of Fame coach and QB move on. Right now those two are the connection

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Well actually no. IIRC the Pats had 4 playoff runs in the first 7 years of the Kraft reign. And that's starting from the bottom of the league. A run that included just 2 losing seasons. Nothing that compares to what we have now, but a very solid start BEFORE the Bellichick/Brady era that bodes well for the time when that era ends.

patfanken said:

Well actually no. IIRC the Pats had 4 playoff runs in the first 7 years of the Kraft reign. And that's starting from the bottom of the league. A run that included just 2 losing seasons. Nothing that compares to what we have now, but a very solid start BEFORE the Bellichick/Brady era that bodes well for the time when that era ends.

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The Pats were better under Parcells and Carroll than they were in the 70's and 80's, their previous stronger runs. But those years don't come close to what the Pats have been in the B&B era. And the Pats won't be close when they're done. Only time will tell though.

fnordcircle said:

Kraft tried to stop us from trading Bledsoe because he was up Goodell's **** (butt)

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Can some Mod sticky this post so the man (#fredundantcircle) can get on with his life.

1960Pats said:

The Pats were better under Parcells and Carroll than they were in the 70's and 80's, their previous stronger runs. But those years don't come close to what the Pats have been in the B&B era. And the Pats won't be close when they're done. Only time will tell though.

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I do not expect this culture of unselfishness, dedication and focus on football will fade any time soon, no matter what Tom & Bill do...And, Bob's a smarter owner today than he was starting out. Scouting and personnel, and coaching are extremely important. Winning is no accident. Making smart, shrewd decisions is crucial. I am not a Spurs fan, but they've mostly done it right...

1960Pats said:

The Pats were better under Parcells and Carroll than they were in the 70's and 80's, their previous stronger runs. But those years don't come close to what the Pats have been in the B&B era. And the Pats won't be close when they're done. Only time will tell though.

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My bet is the answer lies somewhere in between. Better than those first 7 years, and not quite as good as the "golden age" we are currently living through. Something the like the reverse of the early years. In other words 7 or 8 playoff teams and a one or 2 losing seasons per decade. Yeah that seems about right.

patfanken said:

Well actually no. IIRC the Pats had 4 playoff runs in the first 7 years of the Kraft reign. And that's starting from the bottom of the league. A run that included just 2 losing seasons. Nothing that compares to what we have now, but a very solid start BEFORE the Bellichick/Brady era that bodes well for the time when that era ends.

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There is no question about the Kraft ownership turning this into a quality franchise even before BB came on board and Kraft gets big kudos for recognizing that a coach who had been a .500 coach in Cleveland was actually good enough to give up a draft pick to get. But I'm just saying BB and Brady are the combo that has made them otherworldly.

skinnydog said:

There is no question about the Kraft ownership turning this into a quality franchise even before BB came on board and Kraft gets big kudos for recognizing that a coach who had been a .500 coach in Cleveland was actually good enough to give up a draft pick to get. But I'm just saying BB and Brady are the combo that has made them otherworldly.

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and what never gets mentioned is that the OTHER coach Kraft has hired in his career as Pats owner has also proved to be pretty good as well.

One of the things I have always loved about about football is that in no other team sport does coaching make so much of a difference. So in a game where finding good head coaching has proven to be so hit and miss, Bob Kraft is 2 for 2.