Opinion Thread: When do we draw the line?

Serious reply: I just posted over in one of the "Hate Kraft" threads (apparently it's a proxy for hating Goodell to hate Kraft for having too little spine).

My spin is I'm greatly disillusioned with Kraft and really disgusted with myself for thinking he's "different" and "really a fan." Bottom line: in the absence of weird league*-manufactured conflicts, Kraft is the dream owner. But these conflicts expose that our interests as fans do not, in such unusual circumstances, align with his interests as an owner.

And that's where it ends. You can't un-love the team, or at least I can't. It's irrational but that's how football loyalties work. Do what you would usually do, and forget the ideologues. Press them for an answer... they're all still going to or watching games, they're all still buying whatever they usually buy. If there's a huge organized boycott, what's the demand?

Let's face it, the whole point of the recent witch hunts has been "The Pats are too good. Let's over-enforce and over-penalize and make them a first round pick less good... then let's make something up and make them two more first-round picks less good..."

In other words, let's break up the Patriots. So by bailing on your team, even though you don't want to, you're doing Goodell's work for him.

Now here's where the logic loop comes in again. IF the League* would do this, THEN the League's* product should not be purchased. HOWEVER I still want the League*'s product, because... and here's the part a lot of people don't get... the Patriots are a part of the NFL*.

So if you still love the Pats, watch the Pats, buy the merchandise, get Sunday Ticket, do what you do. Once that ball gets snapped this becomes "that off-season stuff" again.

Just to cheer you up, there's an NBC Sports article on the Patsfans front page about how the chip in footballs doesn't measure PSI... a national (read, non-Pats) outlet is saying Goodell/Wells walked backwards from a guilty verdict and pointedly said that they've probably learned how the Ideal Gas Law works in cold-weather games (in other words, pointing out that it's a big secret what the League* learned in measuring PSI over last season). They full-on SAY that the league* railroaded the Pats. I dunno maybe it's not the national NBC outlet, maybe it's some local affiliate's website. But it's pretty heartening.

I'm a cheap SOB. But having lived out of the area since age 6, I greatly enjoy that it seems we're on national TV 6 to 8 games a year (when I was in grade school it was 2 a year, only because we got the Baltimore station). We have a die-hard Pats bar down here that I use to go to more... if I ever REALLY need to see them on an "untelevised" week it's a lock that it'll be on there.

What will you feel like if we're in the SB that could be #5 and you didn't watch the run?

If the answer is, "Game's fixed, don't care," well then go with your gut.

If the answer is, "Nooooooooo!!!," well, be the irrational fan that you are, dish out funds as necessary to buy the product from the evil League*, and hope that Goodell's days are numbered.

Ironic parting shot: .... though they probably aren't numbered, so long as the merchandise, gate, and broadcast funds keep rolling in

Eh well.

PatsFanInVa said:

Once that ball gets snapped this becomes "that off-season stuff" again.

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And that's where I think fans really differ. There is no off season stuff for me. The Patriots are either playing, or they're not playing. They're playing, and then there's a period when they're not playing, and that period is stuff less for me. I don't care who they sign during the off-season. I don't care who they draft during the off-season. That only becomes relevant when they actually take the field. Then, I'm locked in. I live from game to game. And watching the Patriots evolve during the season is a joy to behold. We have been so lucky to get a chance to watch this evolution take place year after year for the last 15 years, that what any member of that organization does beyond the white lines is meaningless to me. Well, except for Hernandez. So get ready, the only season that counts is about to begin.

blackglass3 said:

**before this gets started, I'd just like to please ask that we all be respectful of each other's opinions. Everyone has a different one and would like to hear them all**

Good evening, everyone. I had this discussion with a fellow Pats fan at work Friday afternoon, and I am curious on everyone's opinions. When do you consider what we are doing as "acting against the NFL" and when does someone cross the line to "no longer a Pats fan"?

This is my reality right now: I am stationed in IL, so I cannot watch the Patriots every week on local TV like most who live in New England. I have had DirecTV and Sunday Ticket since 2007, and have gladly paid every year to see my team play. What does one do now? Here is where I am getting stuck in a logic loop: If I pay to watch the Patriots every week, I am paying Roger Goodell and helping the league's bottom line. To me that feels like condoning this whole farce. So no to Sunday Ticket. Ok, now what? Going to a BWW is probably pricier, plus the noise and dealing with drunk people makes it a no-go for me. I could try some online means, but besides the moral or ethical questions (if I'm illegally streaming games, am I teaching my kids the wrong thing? Taking money from the players?) I have heard the quality is usually fair at best and makes the whole experience frustrating. So do I not watch the games at all? If I am not watching the Pats I am not supporting them...if I'm not supporting them am I really a fan? No, I am a fan and I WANT to see them play; even after all of this I look forward to seeing the team, seeing how they "sack up for the back up", how Brady responds when he comes back, how they deploy their forces on the quest for #5. Sunday's watching the Patriots with my wife and sons is one of my great joys in life, scumbag commish or not. So, maybe I should just pay the Sunday Ticket bill...which leads back to square one.

So, how are you all doing with this? I know I'm not the only one in this type of situation. How do you all feel?

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It's simple. You stay and watch YOUR New England Patriots win a 5th Superbowl Title and rise above all the lowlife NFL scum with class and dignity....with perhaps a hint of FU when Brady accepts the MVP of the Superbowl....again!

Then, if you want to retire on principle, have at it!

betterthanthealternative said:

Technical question: I don't live in NE anymore. Is there any reason why I can't buy my NH-residing mother in law a slingshot, and watch from her free broadcast? There's no revenue increase to the NFL from that, correct? (I don't watch the ads).

And if I can do that, can't anyone? Could we set up an on-line network of people to connect NE residents with fans living in other states, like a social network, to create this opportunity across the country?

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First off I think you mean Slingbox And second yes you definitely can stream games from a Slingbox. I did that for four years. A buddy of mine lives in Chicago with DirecTV with Sunday Ticket and I live in Ohio and I would connect to his Slingbox and we were both able to watch the game at the same time.

trevrox said:

I just spent over $1800 for NFL tickets, so my opinion is do it.

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GET OUT!!

I believe that each person should do what he or she feels is right. Personally, I am going to keep watching to support my team, even though it means more lucre in the coffers of those Park Avenue thugs and criminals.

Why? Because I love this team and want to see them play each week, which means unfortunately through nationally televised games for me, due to my geographic location being far outside the New England area. Denying myself this would only bring me nothing but stress and frustration, all to prove a point to a group of very bad people who don't know or care that I exist.

blackglass3 said:

**before this gets started, I'd just like to please ask that we all be respectful of each other's opinions. Everyone has a different one and would like to hear them all**

Good evening, everyone. I had this discussion with a fellow Pats fan at work Friday afternoon, and I am curious on everyone's opinions. When do you consider what we are doing as "acting against the NFL" and when does someone cross the line to "no longer a Pats fan"?

This is my reality right now: I am stationed in IL, so I cannot watch the Patriots every week on local TV like most who live in New England. I have had DirecTV and Sunday Ticket since 2007, and have gladly paid every year to see my team play. What does one do now? Here is where I am getting stuck in a logic loop: If I pay to watch the Patriots every week, I am paying Roger Goodell and helping the league's bottom line. To me that feels like condoning this whole farce. So no to Sunday Ticket. Ok, now what? Going to a BWW is probably pricier, plus the noise and dealing with drunk people makes it a no-go for me. I could try some online means, but besides the moral or ethical questions (if I'm illegally streaming games, am I teaching my kids the wrong thing? Taking money from the players?) I have heard the quality is usually fair at best and makes the whole experience frustrating. So do I not watch the games at all? If I am not watching the Pats I am not supporting them...if I'm not supporting them am I really a fan? No, I am a fan and I WANT to see them play; even after all of this I look forward to seeing the team, seeing how they "sack up for the back up", how Brady responds when he comes back, how they deploy their forces on the quest for #5. Sunday's watching the Patriots with my wife and sons is one of my great joys in life, scumbag commish or not. So, maybe I should just pay the Sunday Ticket bill...which leads back to square one.

So, how are you all doing with this? I know I'm not the only one in this type of situation. How do you all feel?

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I been a Pats fan (admittedly more of a Brady fan) for 12 years now, never even watched a football game until I saw them defeat the Panthers in the SB and fell in love with Brady and the stories that told the legend of the Pats beating the Rams. I live in NC, they air a good amount of Pats games here (at least 10-11 a season --including prime time). I also travel to Foxboro every other year to watch them play, I usually go to Miami to watch them because it's too cold up North, even in the early part of fall.

However, since Defamefate, my interest in the product has dropped. I still watch, mostly for Brady, but I'm not as passionate about it. I don't enjoy it, as much as I used to, because it's no longer legitimate to me or maybe it's because I no longer care for the new characters they are trying to put over.

What separates the NFL from the WWE? The sport itself, maybe. The NFL uses the media to establish its heroes and villains, then they go on to determine their feel good story of the year aka Superbowl winners. Who is really convinced that Denver, with that QB, won the AFC, let alone the Superbowl, in open competetion? Who is really convinced that a sorry, mediocre team like the Panthers achieved a 15-1 record?

At least WWE acknowledges that they are "sports entertainment." It's hard for me to argue with opposing fans about the Patriots, Brady or other teams without bringing up the NFL'S interests and plans. Who didn't already predict that Manning would retire with a ring, last year?

I have to consciously remind myself to think about the game or the Patriots in "kayfabe." It's the only way I sound less crazy or annoying to NFL fans, but talking about fake strengths and weaknesses of opposing teams, no longer amuses me, I'm more interested in the truth -- the REAL reason my team is going to win or lose Sunday.

Even wrestling fans no longer talk about wrestlers in kayfabe. They're more interested in backstage politics and who "deserves a push." A dose of reality makes the product more tolerable, I guess. The push Trashcan Newton is receiving from the league is undeserving. I'm guessing Rodgers wasn't as hot as they wanted him to be or they needed to give him a rival, similar to them bringing in Brady for Manning. I wonder how much the league will use their supposedly "voted by players" predetermined, fraudulent "Top 100" list to put Cam over with fans? It's sickening. Imagine the Newton vs Rodgers debates. Newton vs Rodgers the new QB duel that outrivals Manning and Brady. That's for the younger or new fans, I'm not interested in either QB and that's why my interest in the game continues to drop.

It's up to you to keep supporting the NFL financially. I've spent all I'm going to spend on them. My Brady jersey, old hat and tee should last me till his retirement. Then I'll be officially done with the league and their created and passed on to the media storylines.

PatsWickedPissah said:

Cannot stand the corrupt money grubbing NYJFL
But not comfortable stealing someone else's work product

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Can't say that's not respectable, and I can't disagree that it's best not to stoop to the NFL's level.

But I would also argue that the league stole value from every season ticket holder, namely the difference in value of a ticket to watch Brady play and the value of a ticket to a game where he isn't playing. That isn't stealing from every Patriots fan, but the league has unduly reduced the value of tickets for that select group, and offered no compensation in return. So again, doesn't mean people should stream the games, but the league has dishonestly taken from certain fans, not substantially unlike a thief.

Nah, I still love the teams and the game of the NFL. I just hate the people who are at the top of it.

I'm not going to stop watching something that I love, something that is my favorite pastime that I look forward to every fall, just because I don't want to give my money to a greedy businessman.

I'd rather enjoy things like this in my life then stressing out about something like that. Even if I did stop supporting, what difference would it even make? Goodell and the NFL are still going to be just as rich.

I've anguished over this quite a bit lately. I tell my friends how fed up I am with the current NFL.
With the blatant parity. The manipulating of games.... . They say "Why do you even watch?". And I say, "your right, WHY???". I'm very torn. I despise the NFL office and GoToHell so much that I really, really want to hurt them. I will say this, I haven't purchased any merch, haven't watched NFLN or BSPN. Baby steps. I also watch every game that's not on "free tv" on illegal streams. And I don't feel guilty whatsoever. In fact, I hope they know that many people rob them. I love watching the Pats play , but I am very close to not watching at all anymore. I really hate the NFL that much. It sucks that the NFL knows we are hooked. Fuk them

we should get together at a game early this season...or training camp. Just shoot the shyt and what not. We might be brothers.

It seems like the other owners think that the patriots winning is bad for the league so I think that makes it worth paying for, you get to watch Bill stick it to the owners which is pretty fun to watch. He kind of ****s on their product with the way he handles the media

Joker said:

we should get together at a game early this season...or training camp. Just shoot the shyt and what not. We might be brothers.

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I'd love to, but I live in enemy territory and I'm going to blow up the earth.

BelichicksBlackEye said:

It seems like the other owners think that the patriots winning is bad for the league so I think that makes it worth paying for, you get to watch Bill stick it to the owners which is pretty fun to watch. He kind of ****s on their product with the way he handles the media

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That is about the best reason I've heard for hanging on. . Thank you

LMAO...well...someday we should skype during a game. I'm pretty much a complete Pats lunatic

get yourself amazon Fire TV, watch youtube for instructions to install KODI and never miss ANY game ever.

People spend way too much time thinking along these lines

it really comes down to value......if you want to watch the pats, you watch them.....if its worth paying to watch them then watch them

Pats fans survived getting cornholed by Dreith in 1976

As for any owner being any different, that's just a lesson learned......but who cares about the owner?

If you happened to be asleep at the wheel while Kraft was acquiring the property, then the team, and then building the new stadium.......now you know, and shame on you for being naive while you were actually benefitting from his dealings

PatsDeb said:

I am a long time season ticket holder. I am mad at the NFL for acting fraudulently in this case and at Bob Kraft for being a wuss more interested in maintaining his cash cow than his loyal player's reputation. I am not going to attend or watch any games where Tom Brady is suspended and not playing. I am not going to watch opening night or other games that don't involve the Patriots, at least during the time he is suspended. I boycotted the draft (we made an impact there) and I plan to boycott the preseason. I am not going to purchase any NFL merchandise and I am going to limit my spending at Patriots Place. This does not mean that I don't support the team. I will figure out how to watch or listen to the games, perhaps the day after, without giving the NFL any clicks or advertising dollars. Others can say this will have no impact, but I disagree. For example, this past weekend I had to purchase a baby gift. Normally I would go out and spend between $50-100 to get something Patriots-themed that has an "Official NFL Merchandise" tag on it. Instead I bought a baby store gift card. Normally I purchase at least one official jersey per year (sometimes a lot more if Santa decides to be generous at Christmas). Not this year, and probably not until Goodell is gone. The NFL is going to lose a lot of $$ on me. That is the only way I can hit back a little. If lots of people do it, it will make an impact. The ruling in Brady's favor was not overturned until after I already paid for my season tickets or I might not have renewed. I don't know what I will do next year, but I so love attending Patriots games that I will find it very hard to give them up.

I do not advocate violence against anyone including Roger Goodell, but if I ran into him in a restaurant or on the street in Maine you bet your *** I would give him a piece of my mind and I hope everyone else does too. I hope he finds it so uncomfortable to go to his house in ME that he decides to sell it. He isn't "good" enough to set foot in NE.

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Nice post PatsDeb. I also won't be viewing any games until #12 is back on the field. I cut the cord two years ago and wish I had done it sooner. I hope more fans do the same because the NFL and Kraft won't flinch until we take some money out of their pockets.

I gave up DirecTV because of a dispute. I don't have a family that watches with me so when I can't get the game on regular TV Channels I go to a bar with DirecTV and enjoy the game

But if I had a family that watch together I would buy the package because it is a family affair.

I recently canceled my cable. I'm moving in a few months and Comcast raised my price, AGAIN, so i said F it and canceled it. I have not missed cable AT ALL. Like not even once. The thing I miss the most is a clock in my living room. Need to replace that.

Not sure what I'm going to do when I move. I don't really want to support the NFL and the other league I enjoy, the NBA, has been reduced to a 2 team league. So I may just stay without cable and watch games at friends houses or bars.