New Turf at Gillette

Actual Pats Fan said:

Now may we please finally replace the Birmingham Americans' logo and corresponding clown suits we've worn for the last twenty three years with our real logo and uniforms.

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To many of us the old unis are the clown suits. It brings back memories of the bad stadium named after a bad beer that usually had bad teams playing there. The few times they got their act together and were good they couldn't sustain it.

I'm OK with the occasional appearance of the throwback unis but have no desire to see them re-instated.

Actual Pats Fan said:

Now may we please finally replace the Birmingham Americans' logo and corresponding clown suits we've worn for the last twenty three years with our real logo and uniforms (see picture)?

Heartfelt gratefulness, in advance.

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Wow. I was hoping, now that while playing Pokemon GO millennials are walking off cliffs, into lakes etc. the number of flying elvisers would be drastically reduced...Orthwein, some guy sent by the NFL from halfway across the country takes a huge dump on you (exactly how "ridiculed" is the team today?) and you say "Thank you!!" Absolutely unique, pioneering and precedent-setting, the idea of hiring a former Super Bowl-winning coach and drafting a quarterback #1...nobody ever thought of that before...

Bill Lee said:

To many of us the old unis are the clown suits. It brings back memories of the bad stadium named after a bad beer that usually had bad teams playing there. The few times they got their act together and were good they couldn't sustain it.

I'm OK with the occasional appearance of the throwback unis but have no desire to see them re-instated.

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Thank you so much for your input, honesty and time. Besides all you mentioned, living out of suitcases the first eleven years and almost always facing an uphill battle, players and fans who gutted it out showed character and courage, and like other pro franchises who overcame adversity and later enjoyed championships they deserve to play and be seen as that team, and not some nondescript, unrelated expansion organization.

Bill Lee said:

To many of us the old unis are the clown suits. It brings back memories of the bad stadium named after a bad beer that usually had bad teams playing there. The few times they got their act together and were good they couldn't sustain it.

I'm OK with the occasional appearance of the throwback unis but have no desire to see them re-instated.

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Ask anybody who was there in '66, Fenway and the Sox were dreadful. But they didn't abandon the heroes of their past and, look at their uni's today.

Actual Pats Fan said:

Thank you so much for your input, honesty and time. Besides all you mentioned, living out of suitcases the first eleven years and almost always facing an uphill battle, players and fans who gutted it out showed character and courage, and like other pro franchises who overcame adversity and later enjoyed championships they deserve to play and be seen as that team, and not some nondescript, unrelated expansion organization.

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I thank you too for your honesty and your eloquence, but that doesn't mean I agree with what you wrote.

From my point of view, what you are suggesting is comparable to the idea that a homeless person has to wear the same clothes they wore when they were homeless for the rest of their live just to show the world that they were once homeless. I don't buy that. We can have nice things!

I also don't think gutting it out through crappy owners is a badge of honor. Clearly what Kraft has been doing of late is giving some great pause and some are on the verge of or have past the point of dropping their fandom, and I wouldn't hold it against them if they did. I also wouldn't blame the fans who dropped the Sox when it took Tom Yawkey forever to hire a black player. There's reasons why married people divorce and there's also reasons why sports fans divorce their team. If the partnership is lousy, it's best for both to move on, IMHO. Maybe you pick up a new partner, maybe you don't, but if it ain't working, move on.

Bill Lee said:

I thank you too for your honesty and your eloquence, but that doesn't mean I agree with what you wrote.

From my point of view, what you are suggesting is comparable to the idea that a homeless person has to wear the same clothes they wore when they were homeless for the rest of their live just to show the world that they were once homeless. I don't buy that. We can have nice things!

I also don't think gutting it out through crappy owners is a badge of honor. Clearly what Kraft has been doing of late is giving some great pause and some are on the verge of or have past the point of dropping their fandom, and I wouldn't hold it against them if they did. I also wouldn't blame the fans who dropped the Sox when it took Tom Yawkey forever to hire a black player. There's reasons why married people divorce and there's also reasons why sports fans divorce their team. If the partnership is lousy, it's best for both to move on, IMHO. Maybe you pick up a new partner, maybe you don't, but if it ain't working, move on.

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FYI: I've ALWAYS loved, and appreciated Bill Lee.

I'm glad you brought up the racism thing. Along with Tommy Harper, it still resonates today, but in the relatively small world of the Sox, we like to think in terms of progress and even the big one, forgiveness.

In Baltimore, I see absolutely no connection or historical ties from the Ravens to the Colts. But in Foxborough, they honor their alumni at the Patriots' HOF. Those guys out on the field weren't responsible for the bad beer. I'm probably the last person to begrudge someone their right to put horrible personal experiences in the past, NEVER to revisit them. But in the Patriots history, I see a team 99% unjustly used as a punching bag. Was Billy Sullivan worse than Marge (she oughta be) Schott? The Patriots TEAM was no more deserving of ridicule in 1993 as it ever was before, or since. I certainly don't see racism on the part of the Patriots in their past; whereas it clearly exists among their detractors. Unfortunately, although he is a very nice man, Kraft endorsed the team's denigration by being complicit with destroying our team logo and uniforms, and furthermore learned NOTHING from the league's farce in 2007.

I have to say I love our current uniforms and color scheme. Blue is nicer than red and Pat the Patriot is an ugly logo. Throwbacks are cool to see every now and then, but never on a full time basis. History isn't enough to forsake aesthetics. I doubt Steeler fans want so see their prison bumble bee jump suits brought back either.

Replace Elvis with Pat, and replace the current scheme with that from the 1990s Pats.

Actual Pats Fan said:

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I'm trying to unpack what you wrote. If I can paraphrase it, you (a) feel the Patriots before 1993 are subject to much more ridicule than they deserve and (b) by Kraft changing the uniforms in 1993 he amplified said ridicule and (c) if he would have kept the uniforms the same the eventual success of the Patriots would have changed the way the current generation views the pre-1993 Patriots?

Man, that's a lot to unpack! And believe it or not I think it's a justifiable way to view things. It's just not the way I view things!

One thing I'd inject is that it's a fair bet that Kraft knew the Sullivans much better than any of us did, by virtue of being their neighbor by ownership of the horse track next door then landlord due to his purchase of Shaefer ehm Foxborough Stadium out of bankruptcy. Given said relationship, I can only imagine Kraft would really want a break from the past, regardless of whether or not it would hurt a certain block of fan's feelings. My recollection of the times was that entire saga of the Sullivans, Kraft, Othwein (sp?), Victor Kiam, etc. all left quite a stench.

As for some other statements, the Patriots do have direct lineage back to the founding of the team, the Ravens do not have direct lineage back to the Colts. The Ravens are the descendants of the Cleveland Browns in a business sense but they in fact contractually gave up the rights to records and legacies so that a new Cleveland Browns could eventually come along, as they/it did. And of course the lineage of the Colts resides in Indianapolis, like it or not. I don't like it but that's the state of things.

And Kraft has many mistakes in his past that I wished he learned more from. Remember the Hartford Patriots? He was willing to threaten Patriots fans with the indignity of taking "their" team to Hartford. The common theme is that Bobby does what is good for Bobby. And this to me means it's OK if/when people decide they think it's time to move on.

And thanks for the positive comments on Bill Lee. I learned a lot from his non-traditional takes on life back in the 70s which for me were my formative years.

doesntmatter1 said:

I have to say I love our current uniforms and color scheme. Blue is nicer than red and Pat the Patriot is an ugly logo. Throwbacks are cool to see every now and then, but never on a full time basis. History isn't enough to forsake aesthetics. I doubt Steeler fans want so see their prison bumble bee jump suits brought back either.

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I don't think Pat the Patriot is ugly, I just think the Krafts decided that they wanted a break from the past, and I think their decision can be justified. However I also think some fans dislike or hate the decision, and that too can be justified!

As above, I'm ok with an occasional occurrence of Pat on the throwback jerseys, but that's about it.

Okay, not to sound fanatical, but I worship at the altar of Bill Lee. I sprinkle Bill Lee flakes on my cereal in the morning, and if he were running, you're goddamned right I would vote for Bill for president.

Even years before '93, the Patriot's fan base reached around the globe. And when Parcells was signed, the fans stepped right up to buy tickets. It was Orthwein's idea/decision, someone NOT from New England and NEVER a Patriots fan whose only friendships were with people who never at any time knew or cared anything about the team or anything relating to it, based on their belief that the franchise was "broken and ridiculed." The entire premise of the "need" for destroying our logo and uniforms was therefore faulty, and actually malevolent and asinine in its ignorance. Respecting and preserving the sacrifices and loyalty of generations of Patriots players, coaches and fans was, and is, the correct and right course of action.

Let me tell you what being a real fan is. You don't love someone because they deserve it. Love is a free gift. In 1972 and 1973 I followed the Patriots because they are OUR team, and they also had some good young players who were also good people. And no matter how bad things were under the Sullivans or their successors, we have a lot more to be proud of among our players, coaches and fans than most other NFL franchises that are revered but actually stink. I am not a Houston Oilers fan, or a Seattle SuperSonics fan, or Montreal Expos fan (except when Bill Lee was there). My team is still here, cloaked in a despicable disguise. So call me Han Solo if you want, but I'm not giving up on them.

Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.

-Adlai Stevenson

Actual Pats Fan said:

Let me tell you what being a real fan is. You don't love someone because they deserve it. Love is a free gift. In 1972 and 1973 I followed the Patriots because they are OUR team, and they also had some good young players who were also good people. And no matter how bad things were under the Sullivans or their successors, we have a lot more to be proud of among our players, coaches and fans than most other NFL franchises that are revered but actually stink. I am not a Houston Oilers fan, or a Seattle SuperSonics fan, or Montreal Expos fan (except when Bill Lee was there). My team is still here, cloaked in a despicable disguise. So call me Han Solo if you want, but I'm not giving up on them.

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Great, so fandom is all about geography. You're born in Boston so you gotta love the Pats and the Sox and all that comes with that.

So, you're born in Baltimore and so you gotta love the Colts. But what do you do if your scumbag owner decides to roll the moving vans after dark and move the team to Indy, are you now an Indy fan or do you tell the scumbag to get stuffed? And then a few years later a scumbag owner in Cleveland decides geography really doesn't matter to him as much as the money and now the Browns err Ravens are "your team". What would Han Solo do? Is he a Colts fan, a Ravens fan, or nothing at all?

Go ahead, die on the hill for the Billy Sullivan and hate Kraft forever because he didn't honor what Billy built, corporations are people too, according to our Supreme Court. Just don't be too surprised if there aren't too many others up there with you.

Bill Lee said:

Great, so fandom is all about geography. You're born in Boston so you gotta love the Pats and the Sox and all that comes with that.

So, you're born in Baltimore and so you gotta love the Colts. But what do you do if your scumbag owner decides to roll the moving vans after dark and move the team to Indy, are you now an Indy fan or do you tell the scumbag to get stuffed? And then a few years later a scumbag owner in Cleveland decides geography really doesn't matter to him as much as the money and now the Browns err Ravens are "your team". What would Han Solo do? Is he a Colts fan, a Ravens fan, or nothing at all?

Go ahead, die on the hill for the Billy Sullivan and hate Kraft forever because he didn't honor what Billy built, corporations are people too, according to our Supreme Court. Just don't be too surprised if there aren't too many others up there with you.

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Clarify: Colts are dead. Should have renamed franchise the Indianapolis Racers or something. If someone wants to adopt the Ravens fine, but there's no previous history. So, you can do whatever you want.

But here, now, in New England (well, maybe not CT) it's got nothing to do with Sullivan. It has everything to do with all the Pats fans who rooted for us, home and away. Okay, soooooooooooooooo

All those fans in the stadium in '79 who, when given the choice between the two cheered resoundingly in favor of Pat Patriot, either a) actually were drowning out the silent majority there in attendance who were sick of the bad beer and aluminum seats and were having a lousy time; or b) years later changed their minds, and now have nothing but bitterness, resentment and hatred for a time they'd like to forget ever happened.

And, every single person whom I've spoken with in person about this completely favors Pat Patriot, because a) they're reading my thoughts and don't want to hurt my feelings (or Steve Grogan's), or b) I'm subconsciously hypnotizing them into saying it.