Brady Helping Celtics Recruit Kevin Durant

Ross12 said:

Aptly put. It's just so weak. I don't hate him or anything but I certainly respect him far less than I did before. I would've been totally cool if he decided to stay in OKC. This is just lame.

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Durant's move doesn't bother me in the slightest. The goal is to make money and win championships. Durant has the opportunity to do both. I didn't particularly like how LeBron went about his decision, but it is what it is. I don't harbor ill will toward these guys. After all, they're just sportsman playing out a profession in the public eye.

Warriors are going to give it to LeBron without Ky Jelly this year...

Jesus, people, this move has nothing in common with LeBron. The Heat were a 43-win team before LeBron showed up. The Cavs won 33. Put them together and it's only three more wins than GS won this season.

Durant's move is a pure ring chase. I know it, you know it, he knows it. It's his career, so good for him.

LeBron, on the other hand, doesn't chase rings. He delivers them.

TB12TheGoat said:

Warriors are going to give it to LeBron without Ky Jelly this year...

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Historically speaking, the idea of a dream team hasn't worked out too well in sports. I wouldn't go purchasing my 2017 GSW championship decor quite yet.

That said, if everything goes according to their plan, they should make a deep run at worst. Unfortunately for them, chemistry and injuries can play a large role in these matters.

supafly said:

Historically speaking, the idea of a dream team hasn't worked out too well in sports.

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Someone else said the same thing and I asked for an example but didn't get any, so I'll you the same question:

What are some teams that were viewed by the general populace as a "dream team" that didn't work out too well? Please don't include situations where some idiot player called his own team a "dream team" like Nnamdi Asomugh did a couple years ago or some homer fan base made a similar proclamation. I'm talking situations where the public at large thought it was an appropriate label.

Fixit said:

Jesus, people, this move has nothing in common with LeBron. The Heat were a 43-win team before LeBron showed up. The Cavs won 33. Put them together and it's only three more wins than GS won this season.

Durant's move is a pure ring chase. I know it, you know it, he knows it. It's his career, so good for him.

LeBron, on the other hand, doesn't chase rings. He delivers them.

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If that were the case, LeBron wouldn't have left Cleveland to begin with. It's a mendacious claim, especially when LeBron plotted with Wade, Bosh, and a host of other players to come together in Miami to win championships. Further to the point, when his contract was up, LeBron bolted back to Cleveland where an impressive array of talent and tradable assets to attract further talent were plentiful.

No, LeBron goes where he believes he has the best chance to win rings and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. It's how you go about it that sets perception. The decision was idiotic, his letter to Cleveland was wonderful.

On another point, we laud veterans for taking less to go to teams in pursuit of a championship. We should we look at players in their prime any differently? If you go to a team to win and you get paid, congratulations.

ausbacker said:

If that were the case, LeBron wouldn't have left Cleveland to begin with. It's a mendacious claim, especially when LeBron plotted with Wade, Bosh, and a host of other players to come together in Miami to win championships. Further to the point, when his contract was up, LeBron bolted back to Cleveland where an impressive array of talent and tradable assets to attract further talent were plentiful.

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Yes, LeBron went to a place where he could maximize his chances of winning a ring but make no mistake about it: The Heat were a mediocre team before he arrived and became a mediocre team after he left. The Cavaliers were even worse. He raised those teams to the next level. Say what you want about LeBron but none of those Miami or Cleveland teams win championships without him.

What Durant has done is gone to a team that was 4 minutes away from being the back to back NBA Champions. Even without Durant, the Warriors already won a championship and were the favorites to win the championship next year.

XLIX said:

Someone else said the same thing and I asked for an example but didn't get any, so I'll you the same question:

What are some teams that were viewed by the general populace as a "dream team" that didn't work out too well? Please don't include situations where some idiot player called his own team a "dream team" like Nnamdi Asomugh did a couple years ago or some homer fan base made a similar proclamation. I'm talking situations where the public at large thought it was an appropriate label.

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I'm not exactly an encyclopedia of knowledge, particularly at 12:30 in the morning, but I'll give it a whirl.

Here are 5 of the top articles found during a google search. They should provide you plenty of examples.


A Recent History of Failed Dream Teams

12 ‘Super Teams’ That Failed Gloriously In Living Up To The Hype

Top 20 Most Disappointing "Dream Teams" In Sports History

Dear LeBron: These five Dream Teams failed

Secrets of Great Teams - All Business - Yahoo! Finance

ausbacker said:

If that were the case, LeBron wouldn't have left Cleveland to begin with. It's a mendacious claim, especially when LeBron plotted with Wade, Bosh, and a host of other players to come together in Miami to win championships. Further to the point, when his contract was up, LeBron bolted back to Cleveland where an impressive array of talent and tradable assets to attract further talent were plentiful.

No, LeBron goes where he believes he has the best chance to win rings and frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. It's how you go about it that sets perception. The decision was idiotic, his letter to Cleveland was wonderful.

On another point, we laud veterans for taking less to go to teams in pursuit of a championship. We should we look at players in their prime any differently? If you go to a team to win and you get paid, congratulations.

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Couldn't agree more. His letter to Cleveland didn't include Wiggins on it (the presumed number 1 pick at the time) for a reason because he knew the team would trade him for KLove just as he wanted. That and a declining Wade made it easy for him to jump ship for a new "younger big 3". The fact that going back to Cleveland would make it a PR gold mine didn't hurt one bit. Even 1 title in Cleveland would be viewed as a success, whereas in Miami the expectation every year (right or wrong) was title or bust. With Wade's chronic knee problem Lebron knew he'd be looked at as a failure if he kept losing in the Finals with Miami. Back in Cleveland, he'd have the entire duration of his stay to win just 1 ring and get a passing grade.

You're on point, but many people don't realize that while there have always been super teams in the NBA, Lebron was the first star to really take that concept to a new level via free agency. Now, KD is just out Lebroning Lebron if you will. Truth be told, he was never coming to Boston. He was either going to stay in OKC and finish what they started there (against tough annual competition with the Warriors and Spurs), or he would join a team that could improve his legacy the only way possible through multiple titles, which GSW is the perfect option to make that possible (though nothing is ever a guarantee). Boston was intriguing from the standpoint of having many young assets in the east, but even then the team as currently constructed is nowhere close to being championship level, which is what KD imo what was looking for even before the announcement today.

EDIT: the funny part is, if the league hadn't screwed GSW in games 5-6 in particular (how does Curry who has never fouled out in his career suddenly get saddled with foul trouble in the closeout games while not being able to buy a call on the offensive end?) to extend the series, GSW probably wins b2b titles and KD never considers signing with a team that has won again. Funny how history can change so drastically like a domino effect from less than a combined 12 minute stretch (game 6 of the WCF and game 7 of the Finals). If Barnes doesn't decline the GSW extension last summer KD isn't even an option. If Okc and GSW don't blow their respective 3-1 series leads this probably doesn't happen either. So many things had to happen for KD to even consider GSW. And it did.

supafly said:

I'm not exactly an encyclopedia of knowledge, particularly at 12:30 in the morning, but I'll give it a whirl.

Here are 5 of the top articles found during a google search. They should provide you plenty of examples.


A Recent History of Failed Dream Teams

12 ‘Super Teams’ That Failed Gloriously In Living Up To The Hype

Top 20 Most Disappointing "Dream Teams" In Sports History

Dear LeBron: These five Dream Teams failed

Secrets of Great Teams - All Business - Yahoo! Finance

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All those lists broke the very rule I gave you. In fact, they all mention the exact example I gave of the Philadelphia Eagles. Just because some idiot player said "we are a dream team" doesn't mean the public at large bought into it. NOBODY (outside Philadelphia) thought they were going to win the Super Bowl that year.

Furthermore, many of the teams you gave did win multiple championship at some point, they just didn't do it in the specific year listed. Kobe and Shaq (in their primes) were a Dream Team - and they won 3 championships. You can hardly call them a failure simply because they didn't win again in 2004.

Your list calls the Lakers, Rockets, Patriots and Yankees "failures." Well, by my count, those teams won 12 championships with roughly the same core as the team called a "failure."

XLIX said:

All those lists broke the very rule I gave you. In fact, they all mention the exact example I gave of the Philadelphia Eagles. Just because some idiot player said "we are a dream team" doesn't mean the public at large bought into it. NOBODY (outside Philadelphia) thought they were going to win the Super Bowl that year.

Furthermore, many of the teams you gave did win multiple championship at some point, they just didn't do it in the specific year listed. Kobe and Shaq (in their primes) were a Dream Team - and they won 3 championships. You can hardly call them a failure simply because they didn't win again in 2004.

Your list calls the Lakers, Rockets, Patriots and Yankees "failures." Well, by my count, those teams won 12 championships with roughly the same core as the team called a "failure."

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I'm not exactly sure what to tell you (?)

I suppose that you could remove that one Philly Eagles team off of any/all of those lists, should that suit you. I didn't make the lists up myself. I did a quick google search because apparently, you did not wish to do it yourself.

The bottom line is that the idea of a "dream team" failing certainly isn't my opinion, and since Durant is only signed for one year--yes, that particular year is certainly relevant for whether or not they actually win it all!!! We have no idea how a major signing like this could affect the overall chemistry in terms of retaining key players in the future, so it's quite possible that one or more of Green, Curry, Thompson, and even Durant could be gone in the future. You're moving the goalposts a bit, but honestly, I really couldn't possibly care less. I'm simply pointing out the fact that many/most dream teams have not won it all.

As I mentioned earlier, at worst GSW should be making a very deep run, but I don't think there are any guarantees in sports when loading up on talent (or else every single MLB team who spent 250+ million on their roster would win the World Series in most years, and that's hardly been the case.)

supafly said:

I'm not exactly sure what to tell you (?)

I suppose that you could remove that one Philly Eagles off of any/all of those lists, should that suit you. I didn't make the lists up myself. I did a quick google search because apparently, you did not wish to do it yourself.

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I did do it myself and had already seen some of the lists you presented, and didn't find any good examples.

XLIX said:

I did do it myself and had already seen some of the lists you presented, and didn't find any good examples.

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Well, that's a matter of opinion. There's been plenty of examples of teams loading up on talent and star players, which create both a fan and media hype that can often fail in reaching its goals (championships).

The term "dream team" may be overused by people, so we may have some common ground there, but the overall point still stands that many teams picked by the majority due to a stockpile of talent have failed to reach their goals. I don't really see how that is debatable, although I certainly respect your viewpoint.

supafly said:

Historically speaking, the idea of a dream team hasn't worked out too well in sports. I wouldn't go purchasing my 2017 GSW championship decor quite yet.

That said, if everything goes according to their plan, they should make a deep run at worst. Unfortunately for them, chemistry and injuries can play a large role in these matters.

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This seems like a pretty basic and innocent comment to be having this much back and forth over, so perhaps we should move on.

If you are suggesting that all of those articles were false and that there are no good examples of dream teams who haven't won championships, we can just agree to disagree now and save everyone's time.

ausbacker said:

If that were the case, LeBron wouldn't have left Cleveland to begin with. It's a mendacious claim, especially when LeBron plotted with Wade, Bosh, and a host of other players to come together in Miami to win championships. Further to the point, when his contract was up, LeBron bolted back to Cleveland where an impressive array of talent and tradable assets to attract further talent were plentiful.

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That "impressive array of talent" in Cleveland consisted of a chronically injured defensive liability in Kevin Love (who left his best years in Minnesota, was gone from the playoffs entirely last year and barely saw the floor in the Finals this year) and injury-probe Kyrie Irving (who was gone from the Finals last year). Oh, J.R. Smith is there, too, I guess. After Love and Irving were gone in last year's finals, Delly logged significant minutes and the second-leading scorer was Timofey-freakin'-Mozgov.

Wade was about to enter the back 9 of his career, battling injury problems, and Bosh was a really good player, never a great one. LeBron made those teams title contenders, and they were also-rans before and after him.

During LeBron's first seven years in Cleveland, the best player he had on his team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and he dragged an absolutely putrid team to the Finals.

GS won the title last year and were a few minutes away from joining the discussion of all-time greatest teams this year. They have the two-time reigning MVP (current scoring champ), two All-Defensive first teamers, and four all-stars in their starting five, and that's not even counting Durant. They were already the championship favorites for next season!

Let's not pretend that having a few other good players and giving yourself a chance at a ring is in any way comparable to what GS has and what Durant did. Unless you think that the 2009 Heat plus Chris Bosh and Mike Miller (or the 2016 Cavs minus LeBron) are on the same level as Golden State, in which case I don't know what to say.

Fixit said:

That "impressive array of talent" in Cleveland consisted of a chronically injured defensive liability in Kevin Love (who left his best years in Minnesota, was gone from the playoffs entirely last year and barely saw the floor in the Finals this year) and injury-probe Kyrie Irving (who was gone from the Finals last year). Oh, J.R. Smith is there, too, I guess. After Love and Irving were gone in last year's finals, Delly logged significant minutes and the second-leading scorer was Timofey-freakin'-Mozgov.

Wade was about to enter the back 9 of his career, battling injury problems, and Bosh was a really good player, never a great one. LeBron made those teams title contenders, and they were also-rans before and after him.

During LeBron's first seven years in Cleveland, the best player he had on his team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and he dragged an absolutely putrid team to the Finals.

GS won the title last year and were a few minutes away from joining the discussion of all-time greatest teams this year. They have the two-time reigning MVP (current scoring champ), two All-Defensive first teamers, and four all-stars in their starting five, and that's not even counting Durant. They were already the championship favorites for next season!

Let's not pretend that having a few other good players and giving yourself a chance at a ring is in any way comparable to what GS has and what Durant did. Unless you think that the 2009 Heat plus Chris Bosh and Mike Miller (or the 2016 Cavs minus LeBron) are on the same level as Golden State, in which case I don't know what to say.

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Lebron hand picked his super teams twice in a weak conference! He left Miami the moment they looked vulnerable for a team with one first overall pick in Kyrie and another imminent first overall pick that turned into Kevin Love who was a perennial all-nba level player before coming to Cleveland. Thats stacking the deck too no matter how you slice it. They may not have been as proven as GSW (in a much tougher conference too) but the principle doesnt change.

drewskie said:

Lebron hand picked his super teams twice in a weak conference! He left Miami the moment they looked vulnerable for a team with one first overall pick in Kyrie and another imminent first overall pick that turned into Kevin Love who was a perennial all-nba level player before coming to Cleveland. Thats stacking the deck too no matter how you slice it. They may not have been as proven as GSW (in a much tougher conference too) but the principle doesnt change.

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Yeah, Cleveland's a "superteam." And Kevin Love, the "perennial all-NBA level player" made a total of two second teams. I can't take this argument seriously.

Like I said, if you're equating Miami/Cleveland minus LeBron with Golden State, there's really nothing more to say.

Fixit said:

Yeah, Cleveland's a "superteam." And Kevin Love, the "perennial all-NBA level player" made a total of two second teams. I can't take this argument seriously.

Like I said, if you're equating Miami/Cleveland minus LeBron with Golden State, there's really nothing more to say.

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The Miami Heat's record in the two seasons before LeBron: 90-74 (barely above .500) and 2 first-round exits in the playoffs

Cleveland's record in the two seasons before LeBron's return: 57-107 (.347) and failed to qualify for the playoffs

Golden State's record in the two seasons before Durant: 140-24 (.854) and minutes away from winning back-to-back NBA championships

Yup, same thing alright

I have no problem with KD selecting GSW despite the seeming disdain a lot of people have for the move. Signing with GS, barring epic chokes or a devastating injury, is a surefire way to win some championships. Sucks for the rest of the league but good for them....

Fixit said:

That "impressive array of talent" in Cleveland consisted of a chronically injured defensive liability in Kevin Love (who left his best years in Minnesota, was gone from the playoffs entirely last year and barely saw the floor in the Finals this year) and injury-probe Kyrie Irving (who was gone from the Finals last year). Oh, J.R. Smith is there, too, I guess. After Love and Irving were gone in last year's finals, Delly logged significant minutes and the second-leading scorer was Timofey-freakin'-Mozgov.

Wade was about to enter the back 9 of his career, battling injury problems, and Bosh was a really good player, never a great one. LeBron made those teams title contenders, and they were also-rans before and after him.

During LeBron's first seven years in Cleveland, the best player he had on his team was Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and he dragged an absolutely putrid team to the Finals.

GS won the title last year and were a few minutes away from joining the discussion of all-time greatest teams this year. They have the two-time reigning MVP (current scoring champ), two All-Defensive first teamers, and four all-stars in their starting five, and that's not even counting Durant. They were already the championship favorites for next season!

Let's not pretend that having a few other good players and giving yourself a chance at a ring is in any way comparable to what GS has and what Durant did. Unless you think that the 2009 Heat plus Chris Bosh and Mike Miller (or the 2016 Cavs minus LeBron) are on the same level as Golden State, in which case I don't know what to say.

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You said LeBron doesn't chase rings, he delivers them. The premise of your opinion is incorrect. LeBron chases rings just like Durant is chasing a ring. I don't begrudge either of them that course of action nor do I think Miami or Cleveland have anywhere near the level of talent the starting 5 GSW will put out next season. The problem here is, to appear correct, you've done all you can to discredit the talent of the players both existing and attracted to Miami and Cleveland.