OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.

scout said:

Wow, "competitive". Seriously?

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It's kind of funny when I see people totally disregard the accomplishments of great players from the past. Especially in basketball and even more specifically when they want to throw out Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who couldn't even handle Larry Bird.

Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time in any sport. He dominated the game he played for 11 of his 13 years in the pros after dominating the college game and the Olympics before that. I feel blessed to have been able to see his entire career.

Boston also has the most sports titles of any city except NY. But NY has multiple teams in various sports.

Boston/New England with 4 teams = 36 (9 per team)
NY with 7 teams = 54 (7.7 per team)

If you count MLS we still have the edge but neither team has won in that sport.

BobDigital said:

Boston also has the most sports titles of any city except NY. But NY has multiple teams in various sports.

Boston/New England with 4 teams = 36 (9 per team)
NY with 7 teams = 54 (7.7 per team)

If you count MLS we still have the edge but neither team has won in that sport.

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Since 2001 we own their asses.

NHL 1 vs zip
MLB 3 vs 1
NHL 1 vs zip
NFL 4 vs 2 (should be 6-0 d%#*!@t)

Just my 2 cents:

I think it's important to differentiate the different sports AND the cities they played for.

Boston's GOAT in each sport: (IMHO)

Football - Tom Brady - There is no reasonable argument for an alternative, and he's in the argument as the greatest of all time

Basketball - Bill Russell - More rings than fingers. You can argue Bird and the fact there were more good players then, but it doesn't convince me. Perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time, he was one of those guys who made everyone around him significantly better. (BTW- Bird was another "one of those guys".)

Hockey - Bobby Orr - Not only was he the greatest Bruin, but it could be argued he was the greatest of all time. He literally changed the game.

Baseball - Ted Williams - As Big Papi surpasses his HR total, it should be noted that Ted lost FIVE years, in his prime serving his country. That's another 150 additional HR's at a minimum. Some might argue about Ortiz's clutch hitting in the playoffs should tip the balance in his favor, but I respond in the fact Ted only had ONE opportunity, while Papi played in an era when he had many chances to shine.

Also people should remember that Ted was not only the greatest hitter of all time, he was also known as being one of the greatest pilots, and among the best fishermen who ever lived. Is there a professional athlete who could match those kind of superlatives in 3 totally different arenas?

If you wanted to start a discussion of GOAT in each sport, every sport would have LEGITIMATE multiple choices, and I'm too tired to begin that kind of discussion. But as fans of NE sports, we should stop and take a moment to appreciate just how lucky we are because at least one of OUR players, that we've had the pleasure to root for, would be "in the argument" in every one of those sports. AMAZING.

1960Pats said:

It's kind of funny when I see people totally disregard the accomplishments of great players from the past. Especially in basketball and even more specifically when they want to throw out Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who couldn't even handle Larry Bird.

Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time in any sport. He dominated the game he played for 11 of his 13 years in the pros after dominating the college game and the Olympics before that. I feel blessed to have been able to see his entire career.

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at his peak, nobody could handle the great larry bird. when larry was at his peak, MJ was still too young. and they don't even play each other. larry could score on anybody because of his height and high release point.

and did russell really handle wilt? if you nitpick about MJ getting dominated by our great 80's celtics then you also have to consider how badly russell got dominated by wilt individually.

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Wilt's was 74 -88 against celtics which isn't bad considering celtics had the best team and the best coach.

and just try to comprehend this stat - Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against russell. what's does that mean? wilt did whatever he wanted against russell. Russell averaged impressive 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg but still nothing compares to what wilt did.

Wilt's high against russell was 62. he also had 6 other 50+ point games against Russell. basically a total dominance.

Wilt's also had 55 rebound game was against Russell. 55!!
NBA.com: In '61-62, Chamberlain's numbers were otherwordly

yes, we all know russell is much better winner, teammate, and etc. but it's a fact that he got dominated by wilt as far as stat goes. is the stat overrated? sometimes. but if russell was so great then he would've at least kept wilt at bay. but that's not the case.

russell's accomplishment is great, but i think it's just not fair for players who played in much more competitive era. no matter how great russell was he wouldn't be able to 11 rings in 80's. era was too tough with too many legit teams.

and lastly, i know i didn't get to watch russell in person. i'm not a grandpa. lol but i've seen enough footages and my eye test tell me 80's celtics beats 60's celtic 9 out of 10 times. that's just me. IMO, 80's celtics is top 3 greatest teams all time along with showtime lakers and 90's bulls. and i don't care what anybody say larry bird > bill russell.

wolverinejoe80 said:

at his peak, nobody could handle the great larry bird. when larry was at his peak, MJ was still too young. and they don't even play each other. larry could score on anybody because of his height and high release point.

and did russell really handle wilt? if you nitpick about MJ getting dominated by our great 80's celtics then you also have to consider how badly russell got dominated by wilt individually.

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Wilt's was 74 -88 against celtics which isn't bad considering celtics had the best team and the best coach.

and just try to comprehend this stat - Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against russell. what's does that mean? wilt did whatever he wanted against russell. Russell averaged impressive 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg but still nothing compares to what wilt did.

Wilt's high against russell was 62. he also had 6 other 50+ point games against Russell. basically a total dominance.

Wilt's also had 55 rebound game was against Russell. 55!!
NBA.com: In '61-62, Chamberlain's numbers were otherwordly

yes, we all know russell is much better winner, teammate, and etc. but it's a fact that he got dominated by wilt as far as stat goes. is the stat overrated? sometimes. but if russell was so great then he would've at least kept wilt at bay. but that's not the case.

russell's accomplishment is great, but i think it's just not fair for players who played in much more competitive era. no matter how great russell was he wouldn't be able to 11 rings in 80's. era was too tough with too many legit teams.

and lastly, i know i didn't get to watch russell in person. i'm not a grandpa. lol but i've seen enough footages and my eye test tell me 80's celtics beats 60's celtic 9 out of 10 times. that's just me. IMO, 80's celtics is top 3 greatest teams all time along with showtime lakers and 90's bulls. and i don't care what anybody say larry bird > bill russell.

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Grampy here.

I don't think scoring stats is an accurate way to judge Wilt. Many of his points came at a time when he would come up from under the basket as a shot was heading that way and guide the ball into the basket when it came to the cylinder. I'm pretty sure that the NBA came up with offensive interference because of that move by Wilt.

And in the case of rebounds the NBA at that time counted those on missed free throws, which they don't do anymore. I don't remember when exactly those rule changes happened but it was during that era.

Okay, now go back out and play sonny

patfanken said:

Just my 2 cents:

I think it's important to differentiate the different sports AND the cities they played for.

Boston's GOAT in each sport: (IMHO)

Football - Tom Brady - There is no reasonable argument for an alternative, and he's in the argument as the greatest of all time

Basketball - Bill Russell - More rings than fingers. You can argue Bird and the fact there were more good players then, but it doesn't convince me. Perhaps the greatest defensive player of all time, he was one of those guys who made everyone around him significantly better. (BTW- Bird was another "one of those guys".

Hockey - Bobby Orr - Not only was he the greatest Bruin, but it could be argued he was the greatest of all time. He literally changed the game.

Baseball - Ted Williams - As Big Poppi surpasses his HR total, it should be noted that Ted lost FIVE years, in his prime serving his country. That's another 150 additional HR's at a minimum. Some might argue about Ortiz's clutch hitting in the playoffs should tip the balance in his favor, but I respond in the fact Ted only had ONE opportunity, while Poppi played in an era when he had many chances to shine.

Also people should remember that Ted was not only the greatest hitter of all time, he was also known as being one of the greatest pilots, and among the best fishermen who ever lived. Is there a professional athlete who could match those kind of superlatives in 3 totally different arenas?

If you wanted to start a discussion of GOAT in each sport, every sport would have LEGITIMATE multiple choices, and I'm too tired to begin that kind of discussion. But as fans of NE sports, we should stop and take a moment to appreciate just how lucky we are because at least one of OUR players, that we've had the pleasure to root for, would be "in the argument" in every one of those sports. AMAZING.

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Greatest in their sport:

NBA Center - Russell
NFL QB - Brady
NFL OL - John Hannah
MLB Hitter - Ted Williams
MLB Pitcher - Pedro Martinez
NHL Defense - Bobby Orr

Amazing indeed

aluminum seats said:

It's not Big Poppi, you dummies

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Technically you're correct since PEDs are not an opiate. Should we start calling him Big Cheater instead?

It's odd how Big Poppi took a shot at others who failed a drug test, even calling for them to be banned from the game, but now defends himself using the "I only used what everyone else was using" defense.

He's as big a hypocrite as those Red Sox fans who criticize other players for PED use.

David Ortiz is still haunted by failed drug test - The Boston Globe

1960Pats said:

Grampy here.

I don't think scoring stats is an accurate way to judge Wilt. Many of his points came at a time when he would come up from under the basket as a shot was heading that way and guide the ball into the basket when it came to the cylinder. I'm pretty sure that the NBA came up with offensive interference because of that move by Wilt.

And in the case of rebounds the NBA at that time counted those on missed free throws, which they don't do anymore. I don't remember when exactly those rule changes happened but it was during that era.

Okay, now go back out and play sonny

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Agreed. Wilt's best season was 1966-67 when the 76ers won the NBA title, beat the Celtics in five games and overpowered the SF Warriors with Nate Thurmond, Rick Barry and Pork Chop Mullins.

Wilt's impressive stat that year was his 630 assists. That team had Billy Cunningham as the 6th man (a la John Havlicek) who was the primary difference from previous Sixers teams that depended on Wilt to put up 35+ per night. Wilt finished 3rd in the NBA in points that year but still led the league in rebounds (24.2/game) and field goal percentage. I was at game 5 of the Warriors-Sixers finals at Covention Hall where the upper deck hung out almost to the sideline.

Just to pick up on some grumbling from a previous post, the NBA in the 1960s consisted of a total of ten teams. Ten. Most colleges didn't have any black players of which the vaunted Kentucky Wildcats are most notable. Dean Smith is hailed as a major civil rights coach for recruiting and admitting Charlie Scott as the 1st black scholarship athlete in 1966.

The NBA didn't have anywhere near the talent in those years as we saw in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, and now. Not even close.

Starting centers in the NBA in 1966-1967 (Wilt and Russell's prime) included Nate Thurmond, Connie Dierking, Zelmo Beatty, Darrall Imhoff, Erwin Mueller, and Joe Strawder. Those centers are listed because they led their teams in minutes played at center. I would say that none of those guys after Wilt and Russell would start on a 2016 NBA team.

Wilt and Russell were great in a 10-team mostly white NBA. They'd have their hands full every night of the week in the 2016 NBA and could not possibly dominate the way they did today. And this is not even a decent era for big men. Everybody's got two or three 7-footers. International big men come more fully developed as players (Kristaps Porzingis 7'3" and is a shooter!).

When I mentioned guys like Maravich, West, Baylor, Lenny Wilkens, "O" as being competitive in this era, I meant it. I could do a comparison across the board to players in this era and line up 8 to 10 guys who could handle them physically on offense or defense.

Look at the guards - Oscar Robinson (who some consider the best PG of all time) at 6'5" was Bernie Sanders huge for his era. That's average to small now. The current Celtics have defenders who could handle him physically. Jerry West was a great NBA scorer from 1960-1974 at 6'4", 185. But does anyone seriously think he could create his own shot against today's guards? Maravich didn't play defense at all. Lenny Wilkens was Isaish Thomas (either one) at 6'1". Elgin Baylor was a great small forward at 6'5" 225. Now, that's a tweener when small forwards are 6'9" 230 (Durant, LeBron, Paul George, Kawai Leonard, Carmelo Anthony).

Larry Bird's accomplishments in the 1980s NBA are more impressive to me than Russell's in the 1960s. Bird won the MVP and NBA title in a 23-team NBA in 1985-86. The small forwards in his division alone were Albert King, Julius Erving, Ernie Grunfeld and Cliff Robinson. That's not to mention James Worthy, Orlando Woolridge, Dominque Wilkins, Alex English and other small forwards. The NBA had evolved so much by then, and continues to evolve.

In the NBA, the only position that holds up from the 1960s to now is power forward. Luke Jackson, John Block, Don Nelson, Bob Love, Willis Reed, Tommy Heinsohn, etc were big mean rebounders who defended and could hold their own on the blocks. How good would the Celtic be with Don Nelson at his prime on this year's team?

wolverinejoe80 said:

at his peak, nobody could handle the great larry bird. when larry was at his peak, MJ was still too young. and they don't even play each other. larry could score on anybody because of his height and high release point.

and did russell really handle wilt? if you nitpick about MJ getting dominated by our great 80's celtics then you also have to consider how badly russell got dominated by wilt individually.

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Wilt's was 74 -88 against celtics which isn't bad considering celtics had the best team and the best coach.

and just try to comprehend this stat - Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against russell. what's does that mean? wilt did whatever he wanted against russell. Russell averaged impressive 14.5ppg and 23.7rpg but still nothing compares to what wilt did.

Wilt's high against russell was 62. he also had 6 other 50+ point games against Russell. basically a total dominance.

Wilt's also had 55 rebound game was against Russell. 55!!
NBA.com: In '61-62, Chamberlain's numbers were otherwordly

yes, we all know russell is much better winner, teammate, and etc. but it's a fact that he got dominated by wilt as far as stat goes. is the stat overrated? sometimes. but if russell was so great then he would've at least kept wilt at bay. but that's not the case.

russell's accomplishment is great, but i think it's just not fair for players who played in much more competitive era. no matter how great russell was he wouldn't be able to 11 rings in 80's. era was too tough with too many legit teams.

and lastly, i know i didn't get to watch russell in person. i'm not a grandpa. lol but i've seen enough footages and my eye test tell me 80's celtics beats 60's celtic 9 out of 10 times. that's just me. IMO, 80's celtics is top 3 greatest teams all time along with showtime lakers and 90's bulls. and i don't care what anybody say larry bird > bill russell.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, and you make some very important points. Each player and his accomplishments must be measured within the spectrum of his generation, and there are LOTS of socioeconomic, societal and genetic human developments that impact athletic performance. If we could transplant the stars of the Negro leagues into MLB there would be some differences, but without time travel, people still remain in the company of their generations' peers. For me, Russ will always be #1, not for the rings, and despite the fact that he wasn't any offensive force. If I had to pick a team for a game I had to win, he will always be my first. Wilt remains unique, to this day. Nobody really stopped him, but the Celts found ways to exploit the small weaknesses that existed on a Wilt-team. He'll always be in my top five, or three. On paper, it may not add up, but Rod Laver will always be my #1 male tennis player. Anyway, a lot of the points Wilt put up against Boston came after the game was decided, and they let him do that on purpose, so he'd see his stats and feel okay about that game. Now, Larry, Magic and MJ were great players, the leaders of their time, and I like them. I saw most of those games in the 80's, but I believe the '65 Celtics would wipe the floor with the '86 team. I really like the '86 Celtics, don't get me wrong, but I don't believe they could've handled the '72 Lakers or the '67 Sixers, either. It's not fair, I know, but there are intangibles in life and sports, that by definition cannot be measured quantitatively. If somebody comes along who really appears to be a better player than Bobby Orr, I'll watch and see, just as if somebody ever presents me with some evidence that the Patriots ever cheated in any way, I'll take a look and consider it.

1960Pats said:

Technically you're correct since PEDs are not an opiate. Should we start calling him Big Cheater instead?

It's odd how Big Poppi took a shot at others who failed a drug test, even calling for them to be banned from the game, but now defends himself using the "I only used what everyone else was using" defense.

He's as big a hypocrite as those Red Sox fans who criticize other players for PED use.

David Ortiz is still haunted by failed drug test - The Boston Globe

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Similarly to Larry Bird, David Ortiz says what he thinks and when people, especially the media are not intelligent enough to understand or comprehend it and proceed to attack ("liar", "deadbeat" etc.) it's not his problem. Coach Belichick is gifted in his ability to quickly put in perspective the nonsense that appears in newsprint every day.

I would go with Boston GOATS

The greats of all time
1. Brady - easily the greatest NFL player of all time as well
2. Bird - All around great player, top 5 basketball player of all time, him and Magic rebuilt the NBA
3. Orr - Dominant force, iconic and could do it all. Top 3 greatest hockey player of all time
4. Ted Williams - you bat .400 that is crazy
5. Rob Gronkowski - We have never seen a more dominant force than this beast and future 1st ballot HOFer
6. Bill Russell - i would say the top 4 would be great in any era which is why i put them ahead. But over 10 championships and a defense stalwart

Honorable mentions
1. Cam Neely
2. Havlecik
3. McHale
4. Bourque
5. Tippett
6. Pedro

Actual Pats Fan said:

Thanks for your input, and you make some very important points. Each player and his accomplishments must be measured within the spectrum of his generation, and there are LOTS of socioeconomic, societal and genetic human developments that impact athletic performance. If we could transplant the stars of the Negro leagues into MLB there would be some differences, but without time travel, people still remain in the company of their generations' peers. For me, Russ will always be #1, not for the rings, and despite the fact that he wasn't any offensive force. If I had to pick a team for a game I had to win, he will always be my first. Wilt remains unique, to this day. Nobody really stopped him, but the Celts found ways to exploit the small weaknesses that existed on a Wilt-team. He'll always be in my top five, or three. On paper, it may not add up, but Rod Laver will always be my #1 male tennis player. Anyway, a lot of the points Wilt put up against Boston came after the game was decided, and they let him do that on purpose, so he'd see his stats and feel okay about that game. Now, Larry, Magic and MJ were great players, the leaders of their time, and I like them. I saw most of those games in the 80's, but I believe the '65 Celtics would wipe the floor with the '86 team. I really like the '86 Celtics, don't get me wrong, but I don't believe they could've handled the '72 Lakers or the '67 Sixers, either. It's not fair, I know, but there are intangibles in life and sports, that by definition cannot be measured quantitatively. If somebody comes along who really appears to be a better player than Bobby Orr, I'll watch and see, just as if somebody ever presents me with some evidence that the Patriots ever cheated in any way, I'll take a look and consider it.

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any version of 60's celtics just don't do anything for me. watching the old footage makes me wonder if they can beat today's top college teams. they just look so uncoordinated.



yes, they won 11 rings in 13 years. that's ridiculous. but these player's skillset look so elementary to me. imagine them playing today's nba teams. i'm not even sure if they can get a shot off. all the shots will be contested.

SalemPats said:

I would go with Boston GOATS

The greats of all time
1. Brady - easily the greatest NFL player of all time as well
2. Bird - All around great player, top 5 basketball player of all time, him and Magic rebuilt the NBA
3. Orr - Dominant force, iconic and could do it all. Top 3 greatest hockey player of all time
4. Ted Williams - you bat .400 that is crazy
5. Rob Gronkowski - We have never seen a more dominant force than this beast and future 1st ballot HOFer
6. Bill Russell - i would say the top 4 would be great in any era which is why i put them ahead. But over 10 championships and a defense stalwart

Honorable mentions
1. Cam Neely
2. Havlecik
3. McHale
4. Bourque
5. Tippett
6. Pedro

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Both Eddie Shore and Milt Schmidt belong above Cam Neely. I guess Neely would be more iconic simply by having folks being alive to remember his playing days.

SalemPats said:

I would go with Boston GOATS

The greats of all time
1. Brady - easily the greatest NFL player of all time as well
2. Bird - All around great player, top 5 basketball player of all time, him and Magic rebuilt the NBA
3. Orr - Dominant force, iconic and could do it all. Top 3 greatest hockey player of all time
4. Ted Williams - you bat .400 that is crazy
5. Rob Gronkowski - We have never seen a more dominant force than this beast and future 1st ballot HOFer
6. Bill Russell - i would say the top 4 would be great in any era which is why i put them ahead. But over 10 championships and a defense stalwart

Honorable mentions
1. Cam Neely
2. Havlecik
3. McHale
4. Bourque
5. Tippett
6. Pedro

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And David Ortiz? 3 World Series Championships, career OPS of .931, 521 HRs, averaged 119 RBIs/year over 20-year career, 2,387 hits and counting. 11th all-time in doubles, 19th all-time in HRs, etc. He's a first ballot HOFer, unless the leaked PED test holds him back, which it should not.

All-time Patriots list must include Vince Wilfork. Matt Light and Tedy Bruschi appeared in 5 SBs for the Pats, second only to TFB with 6.

Big Poppi is a PED user and a career DH. That should count against him.

Ted Williams is MLB's greatest hitter of all time, not just the Red Sox.

goheels22002 said:

And David Ortiz? 3 World Series Championships, career OPS of .931, 521 HRs, averaged 119 RBIs/year over 20-year career, 2,387 hits and counting. 11th all-time in doubles, 19th all-time in HRs, etc. He's a first ballot HOFer, unless the leaked PED test holds him back, which it should not.

All-time Patriots list must include Vince Wilfork. Matt Light and Tedy Bruschi appeared in 5 SBs for the Pats, second only to TFB with 6.

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I have Ortiz pretty high, but i just couldn't give it to a DH. I have Clemons ahead, but after all of his drama i kept him off.

I love Wilfork, Light and Tedy, but i have tippett ahead

SilverSeven said:

Both Eddie Shore and Milt Schmidt belong above Cam Neely. I guess Neely would be more iconic simply by having folks being alive to remember his playing days.

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There's also Esposito, in my opinion Neely was the quintessential power forward who would have been dominant in any era.

1960Pats said:

Technically you're correct since PEDs are not an opiate. Should we start calling him Big Cheater instead?

It's odd how Big Poppi took a shot at others who failed a drug test, even calling for them to be banned from the game, but now defends himself using the "I only used what everyone else was using" defense.

He's as big a hypocrite as those Red Sox fans who criticize other players for PED use.

David Ortiz is still haunted by failed drug test - The Boston Globe

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Sounds like you're what the kids today would call a "hater."

I don't know what he did or didn't take, and don't much care. But if you want to be self-righteous about PEDs, know that you're indicting a whole bunch of Patriots players, past and present.

SalemPats said:

I would go with Boston GOATS

The greats of all time
1. Brady - easily the greatest NFL player of all time as well
2. Bird - All around great player, top 5 basketball player of all time, him and Magic rebuilt the NBA
3. Orr - Dominant force, iconic and could do it all. Top 3 greatest hockey player of all time
4. Ted Williams - you bat .400 that is crazy
5. Rob Gronkowski - We have never seen a more dominant force than this beast and future 1st ballot HOFer
6. Bill Russell - i would say the top 4 would be great in any era which is why i put them ahead. But over 10 championships and a defense stalwart

Honorable mentions
1. Cam Neely
2. Havlecik
3. McHale
4. Bourque
5. Tippett
6. Pedro

Click to expand...

ok, i'm not the biggest russell fan, but having gronk over russell is flat out wrong. russell did give us 11 rings.

mt. rushmore

brady
russell/bird (flip a coin - just matter of preference i guess)
williams
orr

i doubt this will ever change