OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

BobDigital said:

Basketball is not like a lot of other spots. If you are the best player on the court you usually win. Full stop. Now other circumstances come into effect too but generally that is the rule. Rarely are you a top 5 player with nothing around you. Some teams have more and some have less around their top guy but generally top guys attract other top guys so it is usually not a problem over a career.

How many truly great players have losing records in the finals? I honestly can not think of any but i am not the worlds biggest basketball fan. So who in the top 10-15 NBA players off all time is under 500 in the finals?

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Fair point that each player has a bigger impact in basketball. But, you could sub any player from NBA history with Lebron and the Cavs still are not going to win unless at the very least Love and Irving play significantly better.

supafly said:

He also scored 25 straight and 29/30 to end the game vs. DET in the postseason (2007), although I'd agree that he hasn't performed as well in crunch time as needed or expected.

As a whole, I agree with you, but using last year's stats from the finals where he scored 32+ in 5/6 games with a bunch of double/doubles and even triple/doubles didn't help your argument, that's all.

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He was extremely inefficient in last years finals and HAD to put up those numbers because he literally had nobody else to play with because of injury..... And he lost..... So, sorry, not impressed. Put up giant, efficient numbers when your team needs you to do if all and WIN and I'll give him praise.

Sorry, he's not in the Jordan/Magic/Bird territory yet.

They're both all-time talents but weren't there like 9 teams in the league when Russell and Chamberlain played?

I feel like that's an important thing that people are glossing over when talking about these players from yesteryear.

Even the best players these days have a 1/30 shot at the championship, that's a liiiiittle harder than 1/9 odds.

Perspective is needed big time if people wanna compare either of those players to someone like Lebron, or even Jordan for that matter.

Bartmac36 said:

They're both all-time talents but weren't there like 6 teams in the league when Russell and Chamberlain played?

I feel like that's an important thing that people are glossing over when talking about these players from yesteryear.

Even the best players these days have a 1/30 shot at the championship, that's a liiiiittle harder than 1/6 odds.

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8 teams maybe in the early Russell years. The counterargument is that the league was not as diluted as it is today, although I don't think that's the case given the player development system that is in place today and the impact of foreign players.

letekro said:

8 teams maybe in the early Russell years. The counterargument is that the league was not as diluted as it is today, although I don't think that's the case given the player development system that is in place today and the impact of foreign players.

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True. When you only have 9 teams (i looked it up) each team is gonna have better talent cause theres less room for middling players. But theres also not the same level of training or breeding as there is for todays athletes.

It's a fascinating discussion cause it can never be definitively answered

realtime said:

Elgin Baylor
Jerry West
Wilt Chamberlain
LeBron

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Well not to dis Baylor or West but i would say only wilt Chamberlain is a guy i would put up in that all time category as a true all time great with Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Russel, Jordan, ect...

He had the misfortune to go up against the most dominant team in all of sports history within their era. I doubt he can be faulted the way Lebron can.

Bartmac36 said:

True. When you only have 9 teams (i looked it up) each team is gonna have better talent cause theres less room for middling players. But theres also not the same level of training or breeding as there is for todays athletes.

It's a fascinating discussion cause it can never be definitively answered

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You also have to take into account that the population of the US has approximately doubled since the 1950s. Which makes jumping from 9->30 teams look a bit less dilutive.

BobDigital said:

Basketball is not like a lot of other spots. If you are the best player on the court you usually win. Full stop. Now other circumstances come into effect too but generally that is the rule. Rarely are you a top 5 player with nothing around you. Some teams have more and some have less around their top guy but generally top guys attract other top guys so it is usually not a problem over a career.

How many truly great players have losing records in the finals? I honestly can not think of any but i am not the worlds biggest basketball fan. So who in the top 10-15 NBA players off all time is under 500 in the finals?

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Who has lost the most NBA Finals? - Quora

Most losses in NBA championships as a player:
W-L record -- Player name -- Championship year (* = won)
0-8 -- Elgin Baylor -- 59, 62, 63, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70
1-8 -- Jerry West -- 62, 63, 65, 66, 68, 69, 70, 72*, 73
0-5 -- Larry Foust -- 55, 56, 59, 60, 61
0-4 -- Max Zaslofsky -- 47, 51, 52, 55
0-4 -- Rudy LaRusso -- 62, 63, 65, 66
0-4 -- Steve Mix -- 77, 80, 82, 83
1-4 -- Keith Erickson -- 69, 70, 72*, 73, 76
2-4 -- Lebron James -- 07, 11, 12*, 13*, 14, 15
2-4 -- Wilt Chamberlain -- 64, 67*, 69, 70, 72*, 73 (0-2 vs Russell, 2-2 versus others)
2-4 -- Mel Counts -- 65*, 66*, 68, 69, 70, 73
2-4 -- Danny Ainge -- 84*, 85, 86*, 87, 92, 93
5-4 -- Magic Johnson -- 80*, 82*, 83, 84, 85*, 87*, 88*, 89, 91
6-4 -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 71*, 74, 80*, 82*, 83, 84, 85*, 87*, 88*, 89

Lebron, Ainge, and Zaslofsky are the only players on this list to have not played for the Lakers.

BobDigital said:

Well not to dis Baylor or West but i would say only wilt Chamberlain is a guy i would put up in that all time category as a true all time great with Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Russel, Jordan, ect...

He had the misfortune to go up against the most dominant team in all of sports history within their era. I doubt he can be faulted the way Lebron can.

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Lebron can definitely be faulted for the loss to the Mavs. But the Spurs and Warriors?

letekro said:

Lebron can definitely be faulted for the loss to the Mavs. But the Spurs and Warriors?

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Well there is still time to right the ship but if his career ends after this series and he loses and is 2-5 I will not make an excuse for him. He will have under performed. You can excuses away a series here and there but 5 loses is pretty damning with only 2 wins.

BobDigital said:

Well not to dis Baylor or West but i would say only wilt Chamberlain is a guy i would put up in that all time category as a true all time great with Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Russel, Jordan, ect...

He had the misfortune to go up against the most dominant team in all of sports history within their era. I doubt he can be faulted the way Lebron can.

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Baylor and West are in the top 15 of every NBA top-50 or top 100 list I have ever seen, and at least one is often in the top 10.

That said, none of them have done anything as blameworthy as LeBron allowing the Heat to lose the title to the Mavs.

This seems relevant to the discussion.

LeBron’s Finals Record Isn’t Really A Disappointment

Lebron deserves blame for the Mavs loss, as I have said. The rest, not so much.

Joker said:

I SAW Russell play. I saw Russell versus Wilt in person at least a dozen times. YOU are nuts. Do STFU about basketball.

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so did millions of others. not sure what your point is. so seeing the players play live on TV makes an expert? well then i'm an expert NFL, NBA, NCAA, NHL, UFC, BOXING experts because i religiously watched anything sports since early 80's.

I'm not much of a basketball fan, it's my least favorite of the major American sports but I still believe Kareem Abdul Jabar is the greatest player of all time.

He needs more help

robertweathers said:

No question McCallum is an expert. I do have some issues with his list but overall its ok.

Of course as an individual player he would take LBJ.

If I was putting $100 on a 1 on 1 tourney I'd probably take LBJ over Russ too.

If I was building a team and needed to win and had all the scoring in the world, the choice of Russ is a no-brainer.

He basically says that in his comments.

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Come on RW, McCallum is not ranking based on 1 on 1 ability. It is the best players of all time, and he has Lebron ahead, while clearly noting Russ's offensive deficiencies. It does not seem outlandish, although I am taking a lot of heat for it here, to say that Russ was a great defender, the ultimate teammate, and a player that was able to elevate his game at the biggest moments, but just not a great offensive player. Nobody says he is out of the top 10, but it is hard for me to put a guy that is limited offensively in the top 5.

letekro said:

Come on RW, McCallum is not ranking based on 1 on 1 ability. It is the best players of all time, and he has Lebron ahead, while clearly noting Russ's offensive deficiencies. It does not seem outlandish, although I am taking a lot of heat for it here, to say that Russ was a great defender, the ultimate teammate, and a player that was able to elevate his game at the biggest moments, but just not a great offensive player. Nobody says he is out of the top 10, but it is hard for me to put a guy that is limited offensively in the top 5.

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The reason Russell didn't score more is that they didn't need him to, they ran a balanced offense. To say he had "offensive deficiencies" is to say Jabbar was rebounding deficient compared to Russell since he averaged half as many as Russell, 11 vs 22 rpg over his career. When they needed Russell to step up, he did as in game 7 of 1962 finals with 30 points and 40 rebounds.. Let that sink in......
Did Auerbach ever have the league leader in scoring?? I dont think so ..

Galeb said:

View attachment 13152

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Looks like you should have posted this about 8 pages ago. LOL

It's easy to hate on LeBron because he's just the NBA Peyton Manning, but just like Peyton, LeBron is almost as good as everyone says he is.