OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.

Jetssuck said:

The Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan in 93-94. The Bulls success was due more to the Phil Jackson system than Jordan.

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Jetssuck said:

The Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan in 93-94. The Bulls success was due more to the Phil Jackson system than Jordan.

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Yep and they lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs. If Jackson was so great they would have won the title without him.

Silly.

robertweathers said:

I love this debate because there is no right answer.

I put Russell ahead of MJ because he was A) the MJ of defense, an excellent passer and the GoAT rebounder in history and B) To win 11 championships in 13 years is incomprehensible. You can't quantify it statistically. You just have to believe that the man figured out how to win games and championships at a level that 99.9999% of the players in NBA never could. Jordan got close. Then Magic/Larry and Jabbar.

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One of the 2 years he didn't win , he had an injured ankle and didn't play.

wolverinejoe80 said:

MJ is the GOAT. IMO, russell ain't even GOAT in boston.

bird > russell any time any day.

high jump = / = max vert.

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Dumbest post of the year grats.

Russell won NCAA both years he played, won 11 championships in 13 years, greatest winner ever any professional sport.

robertweathers said:

I love this debate because there is no right answer.

I put Russell ahead of MJ because he was A) the MJ of defense, an excellent passer and the GoAT rebounder in history and B) To win 11 championships in 13 years is incomprehensible. You can't quantify it statistically. You just have to believe that the man figured out how to win games and championships at a level that 99.9999% of the players in NBA never could. Jordan got close. Then Magic/Larry and Jabbar.

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And he won those championships versus a high quality Laker team. How Amy rings do you think Elgin Baylor and Jerry West would have if not for Russell???

wolverinejoe80 said:

it's comprehensible. 60's nba had 8 to 12 teams. celtics happened to have the best team every year and the greatest coach was light years ahead of other coaches. honestly it's like playing bunch of bad buffalo bills every year to the championship. objectively speaking MJ was just a better basketball player than russell ever was. just watch them play. watch some old 60's footage. MJ would literally avg 60-70 pts every season in that era. not joking.

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They had the best team because of Russell, he made EVERYONE he played with better. He did whatever his team needed to win on a given night. Apparently you didn't see him play because you have no clue

Patsfanin Philly said:

And he won those championships versus a high quality Laker team. How Amy rings do you think Elgin Baylor and Jerry West would have if not for Russell???

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They played 7 times so....

patman52 said:

Gretsky was a greater scorer but the game changed so much in the time between the two. You were not allowed to hit Gretsky by either the refs or the bigs on Edmonton. When Orr Played you could hit the stars.

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Or in the case of Gordie Howe and Orr the Stars would hit you.

robertweathers said:

Yep and they lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs. If Jackson was so great they would have won the title without him.

Silly.

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Belichick didn't even make the playoffs with Cassel. Going by your logic, Belichick isn't so great either.

wolverinejoe80 said:

MJ is the GOAT. IMO, russell ain't even GOAT in boston.

bird > russell any time any day.

high jump = / = max vert.

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BS! Russell doesn't get credit because it was in the 60's. A center that can jump and defend means nothing.

robertweathers said:

Agreed



Gretzky didn't change hockey? C'mon.



Yes



So a higher mound is a knock vs Koufax? During their prime years Pedro played in the most prolific offensive period in history so he absolutely is in the discussion. I put Kofax a notch above for more IP, Ks and playoff success.



Yes to your no. If Brady gets to 5 SBs...

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Gretzky didn't change hockey when compared to Orr. Not sure you didn't just didn't give Pedro more credit? A receiver playing with one of the all time best qbs is better then Brady? Brady has taken his teams to far more SBs.

Actual Pats Fan said:

Thank you for your input...but, guessing you never saw Orr play. And, got a huge laugh this morning when it was mentioned on the radio that Michael Jordan was selected somehow as the "Athlete of the Century." First of all, MJ might be in the top 20 basketball players ever. Maybe. But he'd be lucky to crack the top 200 Greatest Athletes of the Twentieth Century. Sorry, he's simply not that good. I can rattle off 100 better right off the top of my head...but again no disrespect and thanks for your thoughts, keep it up!

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Jetssuck said:

Belichick didn't even make the playoffs with Cassel. Going by your logic, Belichick isn't so great either.

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Just stop

Saying Phil Jackson made Michael Jordan is absurd. MJ was the best player in the league when Jackson arrived.

scout said:

Gretzky didn't change hockey when compared to Orr.

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I've argued that Orr was revolutionary in his play as a puck moving defenseman but IMO he expanded on what Doug Harvey started minus the goals. Bobby put the puck in the net and was electric.

99 did 3 things just as impactful on the game. #1. move the goal up a foot, changed penalty rules and how teams killed penalties. As ive said he dominated like no one has and no one will- ever.

scout said:

Not sure you didn't just didn't give Pedro more credit?

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I've said Pedro is basically the 2nd GoAT. Not putting him ahead of Kofax b/c of playoffs and he pitched more.

scout said:

A receiver playing with one of the all time best qbs is better then Brady? Brady has taken his teams to far more SBs.

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Rice had 80/1200yd/9TD seasons w/ essentially 4 QBs. (Joe, Young, Bono and Gannon). Thats greatness.

robertweathers said:

Just stop

Saying Phil Jackson made Michael Jordan is absurd. MJ was the best player in the league when Jackson arrived.

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It would help if you would have read my second post directed at wolverinejoe. I'm mocking the assclowns who use this same inane argument with Brady and the 2008 season with Cassel.

It is absurd. It's absurd as saying Belichick made Brady.

Jetssuck said:

It would help if you would have read my second post directed at wolverinejoe. I'm mocking the assclowns who use this same inane argument with Brady and the 2008 season with Cassel.

It is absurd. It's absurd as saying Belichick made Brady.

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Ok gotcha.

patsfan13 said:

Dumbest post of the year grats.

Russell won NCAA both years he played, won 11 championships in 13 years, greatest winner ever any professional sport.

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Comparing players from different eras is difficult. Jordan and Russell both had that indomitable competitiveness - just like Tom Brady. All three played for brilliant coaches who understood how to manage men and how to motivate superstars to reach higher.

But it's questionable whether Bill Russell would dominate in the 2015-2016 NBA at his prime. There are so many athletic, talented big men on every team now. When Bill Russell retired they were 14 NBA teams.

There were 26 in 1994 when Isiah Thomas retired. Today there are 30 teams. The NBA is a completely different league, the NCAA is turning out more gifted players, and the biggest change is the emergence of outstanding international players from all over the world.

Players that dominate in the 30-team international NBA are extraordinary players. I think certain guys from the pre- 1970 expansion that added the Buffalo Braves, the Trailblazers, and the Cavaliers would be factors in today's game or in the Jabbar-Bird-Magic-Erving-Jordan-Olajuwon-D. Wilkins, Malone era.

Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Lenny Wilkens, Baylor, Maravich, and a few others might be competitive. But looking back at some of the 1950s-1960s all-star line-ups has lots of guys who would be journeymen at best in the modern NBA.

Guys like Gale Goodrich, Lou Hudson, Wayne Embry, Walt Bellamy, Sam Jones, Chet Walker, Bailey Howell, Len Chappell, etc. don't have the tools to play in the 2015 NBA. Russell was competing with a whole different caliber of player.

1960Pats said:

Speaking of ARod.

There was nothing that turned me off more than tuning in to sports talk radio back in 2003-2004, during the height of the Pats greatest run of winning in NFL history, and hearing nothing but ARod is coming to Boston talk. That pretty much ended my sports talk radio days. The only way I listen now is by going through the archives and finding a Brady or Belichick interview.

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Yeah; you only heard about ARod, and our punter...BTW, huge kudos must go out to Larry Lucchino, who helped quash the negotiations. Success of '04 never would have happened if ARod was here. *** Furthermore, was important that Sox decided not to retain Ugueth "Uggy" Urbina after '02 season to employ the "bullpen by committee" which actually worked out, if not for G.L. Urbina was picked up by the Marlins in '03, who staged a shocking comeback from the cellar to barely grab the Wild Card, on their way to the WS title (thank you, Bartman on Oct. 14th). Anyway, that's why the infield was still in Pro Player Stadium on the 19th, where Olindo Mare missed a pair of potential game-winning FG's and Troy Brown finally hauled in the winner in OT. Patten falling out of bounds unconscious in Buffalo in '01 wasn't the only lucky thing to happen for us.

Fixit said:

I'm just popping in to say that the only thing more insane than saying that anyone other than Gretzky is the hockey GOAT is saying that MJ isn't NBA top 20.

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Well, guess I'm crazy...but Wayne really is The Great One, and also a really nice guy and teammate. His incomparable personal stats accurately reflect his contribution on the ice. But anybody like me, or Gordie Howe, or Milt Schmidt, or anyone else who saw Bobby play will tell that Orr was just at a level above everybody else, ever. I think that winning Norris, Hart, Ross, Smythe and Cup in same season reflects that.

robertweathers said:

We are counting college now?

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College is extremely important, in terms of the first 3/4 of the 20th century.