OT: Boston, G.O.A.T.

wolverinejoe80 said:

it's comprehensible. 60's nba had 8 to 12 teams. celtics happened to have the best team every year and the greatest coach was light years ahead of other coaches. honestly it's like playing bunch of bad buffalo bills every year to the championship. objectively speaking MJ was just a better basketball player than russell ever was. just watch them play. watch some old 60's footage. MJ would literally avg 60-70 pts every season in that era. not joking.

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Jordan was a better scorer x 100 but all comparisons stop right there.

I think you need to look at each of those seasons and understand the dynamics at play. Those 11 titles absolutely were not cakewalks.

Think of it as the 2003 and 2004 Patriots playing off an on for 13 years off and on and winning 11 SBs.

wolverinejoe80 said:

name me 19 basketball players who were better than MJ.

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MJ was great, especially teamed with Pippen, was deadly, like Gretzky-Kurri. And, Bulls (like Lakers & Spurs) did what it takes to win multiples (sign Dennis Rodman). UNLIKE the Celtics (refused to pay James Posey=zero more championships). If I had to start a team, I would choose: Russell, Chamberlain, Pettit, West, Baylor, Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Bird, maybe even Havlicek over MJ. I like Mike and he may be more athletically gifted than all of them, but I want to win.

Actual Pats Fan said:

MJ was great, especially teamed with Pippen, was deadly, like Gretzky-Kurri. And, Bulls (like Lakers & Spurs) did what it takes to win multiples (sign Dennis Rodman). UNLIKE the Celtics (refused to pay James Posey=zero more championships). If I had to start a team, I would choose: Russell, Chamberlain, Pettit, West, Baylor, Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Bird, maybe even Havlicek over MJ. I like Mike and he may be more athletically gifted than all of them, but I want to win.

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MJ won 6 rings as a lead dog. your argument doesn't make sense. every great players had a robin or two.

robertweathers said:

I think you need to look at each of those seasons and understand the dynamics at play. Those 11 titles absolutely were not cakewalks.

Think of it as the 2003 and 2004 Patriots playing off an on for 13 years off and on and winning 11 SBs.

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Lakers (and Sixers) of '60's were VERY good; Celts' outward bravado covered up enormous respect (and, really, fear).

robertweathers said:

Jordan was a better scorer x 100 but all comparisons stop right there.

I think you need to look at each of those seasons and understand the dynamics at play. Those 11 titles absolutely were not cakewalks.

Think of it as the 2003 and 2004 Patriots playing off an on for 13 years off and on and winning 11 SBs.

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celtics were superior teams with better players and coaching.

MJ was better scorer, better FT shooter, better all around player, better passer, better everything except rebounding which honestly is the most overrated stat especially in today's nba. just look at rebounding leaders we have today. they are not as impactful as scorers.

russell is top 5 all time because of his accomplishments. but honestly was he even better than hakeem? kareem? shaq? i often wonder what kind of stats young shaq would put up in 60s. hakeem was every bit quick and agile as russell ever was, but hakeem was far better offensive player than russell ever was. wouldn't hakeem avg 35/25reb in 60's?

anyway i don't even like MJ. dude is a total douche.

larry bird > bill russell

i don't care what ya'll say! put 80's celtics in 60's, it would be very hard for them to lose a game. a game!

Actual Pats Fan said:

Lakers (and Sixers) of '60's were VERY good; Celts' outward bravado covered up enormous respect (and, really, fear).

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They had great teams.

wolverinejoe80 said:

celtics were superior teams with better players and coaching.

MJ was better scorer, better FT shooter, better all around player, better passer, better everything except rebounding which honestly is the most overrated stat especially in today's nba. just look at rebounding leaders we have today. they are not as impactful as scorers.

russell is top 5 all time because of his accomplishments. but honestly was he even better than hakeem? kareem? shaq? i often wonder what kind of stats young shaq would put up in 60s. hakeem was every bit quick and agile as russell ever was, but hakeem was far better offensive player than russell ever was. wouldn't hakeem avg 35/25reb in 60's?

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Oh god those guys would dominate no question.

Rebounding was not overrated back then. It was incredibly important.

But if you believe that greatness is past, present and future, give Russell a year to train, acclimate to todays game I feel pretty confident that he'd be a 22/20+/5 blocks a night guy in his prime.

Russ would have a ***** of a time with Shaq in his prime. Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson..all would put up big numbers on him. Hell Wilt put up 35ppg on Russ. Is that stopping? No but Wilt did have some of the worst games in his career vs Russ. The guy just found a way to do it when it mattered....always.

Jordan was not better than Russ defensively. Check out his games sometime. He was a madman.

wolverinejoe80 said:

i love bill russell, but Jordan is consensus GOAT. not even debatable.

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(consensus=patriots cheated)

just not as good as celtics. in nba playoffs, better team almost always win. it ain't football. we were better than giants. but we lost. it happens in do or die 1 game playoff format. but in nba playoff format, better team almost always win.

Gretsky was a greater scorer but the game changed so much in the time between the two. You were not allowed to hit Gretsky by either the refs or the bigs on Edmonton. When Orr Played you could hit the stars.

robertweathers said:

Oh god those guys would dominate no question.

Rebounding was not overrated back then. It was incredibly important.

But if you believe that greatness is past, present and future, give Russell a year to train, acclimate to todays game I feel pretty confident that he'd be a 22/20+/5 blocks a night guy in his prime.

Russ would have a ***** of a time with Shaq in his prime. Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson..all would put up big numbers on him. Hell Wilt put up 35ppg on Russ. Is that stopping? No but Wilt did have some of the worst games in his career vs Russ. The guy just found a way to do it when it mattered....always.

Jordan was not better than Russ defensively. Check out his games sometime. He was a madman.

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The problem with Russ is, there have been literally thousands of basketball players simply more athletically gifted and spectacular at the game, past and present; many people find it impossible to wrap their heads around the fact that the best at the sport, ever, was a gangly, scrawny, goofy, nonathletic, unpopular shy kid who spent his adolescence reading books in the library, and who later, along with a physical attraction to the sport applied an intellectual and geometric personal analysis to the game, combined with an unmatched competitive fire and psychological superiority, like a chess master. Thank heaven for the pioneering Ali, whose incredible life inspired our discussion!

Actual Pats Fan said:

The problem with Russ is, there have been literally thousands of basketball players simply more athletically gifted and spectacular at the game, past and present; many people find it impossible to wrap their heads around the fact that the best at the sport, ever, was a gangly, scrawny, goofy, nonathletic, unpopular shy kid who spent his adolescence reading books in the library, and who later, along with a physical attraction to the sport applied an intellectual and geometric personal analysis to the game, combined with an unmatched competitive fire and psychological superiority, like a chess master. Thank heaven for the pioneering Ali, whose incredible life inspired our discussion!

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Come to think of it, that reminds be of a kid named Brady, who was at the bottom of every NFL athletic measuring criteria...makes me wonder if former Patriot Brian Dowling had ever got a chance...

Actual Pats Fan said:

(consensus=patriots cheated)

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that's fans hating on us. i'm talking about die hard basketball critics. those who live and die basketball.

bill russell is in my top 5. but MJ is the GOAT.

i would rank

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. magic
4. bird
5. russell
6. wilt
7. bron
8. shaq
9. duncan
10. hakeem



for peak value

1. MJ
2. shaq
3. bird
4. hakeem
5. magic
6. kareem
7. duncan
8. bron
9. wilt
10. russell

wolverinejoe80 said:

that's fans hating on us. i'm talking about die hard basketball critics. those who live and die basketball.

bill russell is in my top 5. but MJ is the GOAT.

i would rank

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. magic
4. bird
5. russell
6. wilt
7. bron
8. shaq
9. duncan
10. hakeem



for peak value

1. MJ
2. shaq
3. bird
4. hakeem
5. magic
6. kareem
7. duncan
8. bron
9. wilt
10. russell

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Thanks, man. It's all good.

robertweathers said:

Oh god those guys would dominate no question.

Rebounding was not overrated back then. It was incredibly important.

But if you believe that greatness is past, present and future, give Russell a year to train, acclimate to todays game I feel pretty confident that he'd be a 22/20+/5 blocks a night guy in his prime.

Russ would have a ***** of a time with Shaq in his prime. Duncan, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson..all would put up big numbers on him. Hell Wilt put up 35ppg on Russ. Is that stopping? No but Wilt did have some of the worst games in his career vs Russ. The guy just found a way to do it when it mattered....always.

Jordan was not better than Russ defensively. Check out his games sometime. He was a madman.

Click to expand...

i would say it would be more like 14/16.5/3.5-4 block a game kinda guy. that's a great friggin number. russell can be better ben wallace with little bit of dwight howard in his prime with today's training. russell was offensively challenged then, he will be offensively challenged now.

scoring is a natural ability. when wilt was putting up 50 russell was scoring 18-19pts a game. how in the world he would score more in today's league when he couldn't even avg 20pts a game in an era where many dudes had a 2nd job? also big men's role has diminished, so the offense doesn't go inside then out.
and averaging 20+reb a game is pretty much impossible in today's nba. today's nba lack's possession, and big men simply doesn't play 40+ mins. no teams would allow that.

IcyPatriot said:

Definitely not if one is speaking of getting laid ...
Jeter is definitely a candidate for G.O.A.T is that area for baseball players .. Russell had him beat there.

... as for baseball the game ... well

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Wilt Chamberlain.....*drops mic and walks off stage*

wolverinejoe80 said:

i would say it would be more like 14/16.5/3.5-4 block a game kinda guy. that's a great friggin number. russell can be better ben wallace with little bit of dwight howard in his prime with today's training. russell was offensively challenged then, he will be offensively challenged now.

scoring is a natural ability. when wilt was putting up 50 russell was scoring 18-19pts a game. how in the world he would score more in today's league when he couldn't even avg 20pts a game in an era where many dudes had a 2nd job? also big men's role has diminished, so the offense doesn't go inside then out.
and averaging 20+reb a game is pretty much impossible in today's nba. today's nba lack's possession, and big men simply doesn't play 40+ mins. no teams would allow that.

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And how would today's players play if they called traveling, palming, 3 seconds and moving picks.

fair catch fryar said:

Wilt Chamberlain.....*drops mic and walks off stage*

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I miss Wilt. "Say, why don't you come up and visit in Bel-Air sometime?"

The Bulls went 55-27 without Jordan in 93-94. The Bulls success was due more to the Phil Jackson system than Jordan.