Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Greatest I am · Apr 12, 2016

Tony2046 said:
Unless God or a higher consciousness exists then it is the same as gravity, dark matter or something else we do not currently know about. Yes Hell and Heaven may be creations of man used as a control mechanism and, or to explain their beliefs but I am not arguing about fishing stories nor disputing them. I am simply stating that it is currently not possible to know if there exists a higher level of consciousness that we do not yet understand.

And stating it as a possibility is fine but stating it as a reality so as to fleece the sheeple is not so fine.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am · Apr 12, 2016

anditsgood said:
He is a gnosis christian, and he is better than that born again that gets in your face to preach his religion, or that atheist that does the same

Thank you.

I try to show the worth of Gnostic Christianity with my moral position. If people agree with it and happen to read about Gnostic Christianity or ask about it, I think that great.

Otherwise, I do not care about anyone's faith. I care about how they apply their, usually immoral doctrines against innocent people like gays and women who are denied equality by their misogynous and homophobic religions.

Regards
DL

Tony2046 · Apr 12, 2016

Greatest I am said:
Do you think that religions that lie constantly to their adherents should be bashed or just left to keep on lying and fleecing their sheeple?

Is the "lie" something you believe not to be true or know not to be true?

Are we discussing a specific interpretation of the Bible or the general interpretation or how they inteperate the Bible to support their social views?

Greatest I am said:
I appreciate that the West has pulled Christianity into a better moral position from their more murderous and immoral one, but if you look at their thinking, in Mississippi and North Carolina on gays, they are no better than Islam which are still stoning gays.

This I disagree with

I'm not sure what the thinking is in Mississippi or NC but I doubt they believe that stoning a gay guy is something God endorses. Yes there are idiots and maybe more live in one are or another but I'm sure that the south's views are far more liberal , relatively, than the views of ISIS. haha

I spent a few years during the late 80's in Alabama and found that there is a relatively huge differences between Christian churches of different denominations. One church I had attended and continued to attend had just split because of a vote to "allow" black members to stay in the church. (OK, before I go on I have to tell you that I found myself in a state of total disbelief when being told about the issue. I felt as if I had been teleported back to the 1950's or something.) Those who voted "no" started a separate church of the same denomination. So one church of one denomination made correct choices and honestly tried to interpret the Bible as realistically and accurately as possible because they were searching for the "truth" while the other church of the same denomination chose to interpret the Bible to suit their ignorant social views. The differences between various denominations can be extreme as well.

IOW, you cannot lump all southern churches into an ignorant category nor can you lump all participants of a church into a category good or bad.

Greatest I am said:
Both of the religions named ar immoral constructs and only immoral people will support them.

Again this is generalizing a lot of good people and churches into one category. I think you are using a large net to cast your views.

It sounds like you not only disagree with certain denominations but actually display anger towards them.

Thanks for the reply GIM. It's an interesting discussion.

Greatest I am · Apr 12, 2016

Tony2046 said:
Is the "lie" something you believe not to be true or know not to be true?

Are we discussing a specific interpretation of the Bible or the general interpretation or how they inteperate the Bible to support their social views?

This I disagree with

I'm not sure what the thinking is in Mississippi or NC but I doubt they believe that stoning a gay guy is something God endorses. Yes there are idiots and maybe more live in one are or another but I'm sure that the south's views are far more liberal , relatively, than the views of ISIS. haha

I spent a few years during the late 80's in Alabama and found that there is a relatively huge differences between Christian churches of different denominations. One church I had attended and continued to attend had just split because of a vote to "allow" black members to stay in the church. (OK, before I go on I have to tell you that I found myself in a state of total disbelief when being told about the issue. I felt as if I had been teleported back to the 1950's or something.) Those who voted "no" started a separate church of the same denomination. So one church of one denomination made correct choices and honestly tried to interpret the Bible as realistically and accurately as possible because they were searching for the "truth" while the other church of the same denomination chose to interpret the Bible to suit their ignorant social views. The differences between various denominations can be extreme as well.

IOW, you cannot lump all southern churches into an ignorant category nor can you lump all participants of a church into a category good or bad.

Again this is generalizing a lot of good people and churches into one category. I think you are using a large net to cast your views.

It sounds like you not only disagree with certain denominations but actually display anger towards them.

Thanks for the reply GIM. It's an interesting discussion.

I do not see a conflict or problem in broad brushing all the Christian cults as they all fly the same cross and have accepted the immoral concept that they should embrace human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.

That position is patently unjust and immoral. As any judge anywhere.

If you agree then which Christian denomination should I exempt with my broad brush or throw out of my net?

And yes. I get angry when religious people accept immoral tenets when religions are supposed to be the epitome of moral thinking.

Regards
DL

Tony2046 · Apr 25, 2016

Sorry GIM, I missed this response.

Greatest I am said:
I do not see a conflict or problem in broad brushing all the Christian cults as they all fly the same cross and have accepted the immoral concept that they should embrace human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.

Could you elaborate on this? Are you referring to things such as anti-gay positions or is it more than that?

Greatest I am said:
If you agree then which Christian denomination should I exempt with my broad brush or throw out of my net?

I judge people on an individual basis and not because they live, work or pray in a particular place and although there is some merit to the phrase "birds of a feather...." I would not use it as a tool to condemn someone rather as a precautionary tool for interaction.

Greatest I am said:
And yes. I get angry when religious people accept immoral tenets when religions are supposed to be the epitome of moral thinking.

Individual morality can vary greatly from person to person. Yes religion can have an influence but so do numerous other factors as well. Individual morality can evolve or change quickly.

Social morality has to measured as a mean but you must recognize the upper and lower range of the spectrum. Social morality evolves at a much slower rate and in some cases may devolve.

But you are specifically focused on the Christian church. There are numerous denominations and sub denominations which share some views and disagree in others. Morale views of the church will evolve albeit slowly but an individual's views within the church would evolve much quicker. For example, you will find in the same church a wide range of views ranging from support of gay marriage to those who not only oppose gay marriage but also oppose gay rights.

To include all individuals from a select religion in your "social" net is just not responsible and to do so is no better than the angry (fill in the blank ) that says all (fill in the blank) are (fill in the blank).

Greatest I am · Apr 25, 2016

I am not sure of what happened above but let me answer your first with this.

My focus of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty begins with agreement with Bishop Spongs position.

I also dislike other places in scriptures show God punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. The Great Flood, the first born of Egypt after hardening the Pharaoh's heart. That God is quite the vile demiurge.

What you say of individuals is basically beyond dispute but regardless of that wisdom, if you ignore the killing power of each straw, your camel will soon die.

Regards
DL

IllegalContact · May 5, 2016

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Oswlek · May 27, 2016

Tony2046 said:
Unless God or a higher consciousness exists then it is the same as gravity, dark matter or something else we do not currently know about.

I appreciate you thoughts, but there is a seismic difference between god/energy/consciousness and any of your examples, Tony. I'll use dark matter to illustrate.

It is true that we don't know much about dark matter. In fact, we could be so mistaken about it that we are attributing things to dark matter that are caused by something else entirely.

However, despite this, the effects of dark matter (or whatever) manifest in actual, testable results within the material we do see. We witness astrological bodies move in accord with its gravitational force and we see light bend as it passes through larger clumps. Whether this is caused specifically by dark mater is immaterial, either way something is causing phenomena that the stuff we see wouldn't do alone.

You might say that science postulating dark matter as a result of this information is the same as what you are doing... but you would be wrong.

You see, we can test for the presence of dark matter. The behavior of regular matter tells us whether dark matter is there, but more importantly, it tells us if dark matter is not there. We also have viable mathematical models that account for dark matter. In fact, "account for" is putting it too mildly. The truth is that dark matter resolves virtually all issues with gravitational theory.... at least until we get to the quantum level.

For god/universal consciousness to be considered on the level of your examples, a mathematical framework would need to be provided, along with tests that could generate falsifiable results. Not only are neither of these the case, as human knowledge has expanded, god has receded further into the shadows specifically to avoid such testability.

Until this changes, appealing to gaps in knowledge is an argument from ignorance fallacy. There are an infinite number of things that cannot be ruled out, what you need to do is give a reason to rule god in.

BTW, coincidentally, I was listening to this when I stumbled upon your comment. I think you might find it intriguing.

The Exquisite Role of Dark Matter | Edge.org

Tony2046 · May 27, 2016

Oswlek said:
I appreciate you thoughts, but there is a seismic difference between god/energy/consciousness and any of your examples, Tony. I'll use dark matter to illustrate.

It is true that we don't know much about dark matter. In fact, we could be so mistaken about it that we are attributing things to dark matter that are caused by something else entirely.

However, despite this, the effects of dark matter (or whatever) manifest in actual, testable results within the material we do see. We witness astrological bodies move in accord with its gravitational force and we see how larger clumps bend light that passes through. Whether this is caused specifically by dark mater is immaterial, either way something is causing phenomena that the stuff we see wouldn't do alone.

You might say that science postulating dark matter as a result of this information is the same as what you are doing... but you would be wrong.

You see, we can test for the presence of dark matter. The behavior of regular matter tells us whether dark matter is there, but more importantly, it tells us if dark matter is not there. We also have viable mathematical models that account for dark matter. In fact, "account for" is putting it too mildly. The truth is that dark matter resolves virtually all issues with gravitational theory.... at least until we get to the quantum level.

For god/universal consciousness to be considered on the level of your examples, a mathematical framework would need to be provided, along with tests that could generate falsifiable results. Not only are neither of these the case, as human knowledge has expanded, god has receded further into the shadows specifically to avoid such testability.

Until this changes, appealing to gaps in knowledge is nothing more than an argument from ignorance fallacy. There are an infinite number of things that cannot be ruled out, what you need to do is give a reason to rule god in.

BTW, coincidentally, I was listening to this when I stumbled upon your comment. I think you might find it intriguing.

The Exquisite Role of Dark Matter | Edge.org

Well first of all. How the hell are you. I have not seen you post for a while.

I'll respond to your well written and well thought out post at a later time.

BobDigital · May 30, 2016

I would not say it is an evil lie but it seems to be needed for a religion to flourish. When you start a religion i don't think any of the ones that are sustainable say "if you do as we ask you get tormented for eternity" or "it makes no difference either way just join".

3 things every religion needs to be to be sustainable.

Pronatalist, offer rewards or perhaps punishments for joining and not joining (either in this life or in an after life) & encourage indoctrination specifically of children.

Religions that don't have those things don't tend to last.

Look at the Shakers vs Amish. They are very similar groups except the Shakers don't have children and only try to indoctrinate adults. They are almost non-existant these days while the Amish are still doing okay as a group.

Oswlek · May 31, 2016

Here is another edifying talk that goes into great detail the path that lead to the dark matter hypothesis and the manner in which we can test it today. The fact that Priyamvada Natarajan is in this one as well is completely coincidental. I was planning on sharing it before I even realized she was on the panel.

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

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