Patriots Offense - A plethora of riches??

n6249c said:

Disagree if you'd like, but there are times it's been clear he was locked on before the snap and missed more open alternatives.

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Absolutely. He's been lazy with his reads at times, just assuming what appears to be a match up advantage, pre snap, will mean he has one during the play unfolding.

Brady's presnap management and ability to use that, only really exists against a mediocre or bad D. He can do the Gronk/Edelman binky read thingy all day everyday against a mediocre or bad D, sure.

But, it's the tougher defenses where it's not so simple and where McDaniels needs to get playcalls and 1st reads to others, mainly the X position, so it widens the field, opens up Brady's options and makes the D accountable for all.

For example, on the first play in SB 46, Brady had time, stared down Branch on a 1st read deep ball to stretch the field off of playaction, which was a dumb playcall, and he lazily threw it out there, not thinking he'd be called for grounding.

But, Welker was WIDE open to his right. If he just moved his feet, looked off Branch and checked it down of sorts, he's got Welker into the flat.

I call it "Brady-Lock". It happens. He's prone to it in this pass happy style offense.

It's partly the poor playcalling against the better Ds and partly on Brady not thinking he ever needs to move his feet outside the pocket. Not every play is going to look like 2007, where he can just stand like a statue, survey the field for 5+ seconds on every shotgun spread dropback.

His worst stretch was 2011 through November that year where he was on pace to shatter his INT record from 2002.

He cleaned it up nicely in December that year, only to revert back to it in the postseason with 2 ugly INTs vs Baltimore and 1 bad one in the SB, amongst some other mistakes.

AndyJohnson said:

I disagree. If his first read is open he hits it. Depending upon who that player is "open" is defined differently. Brady does not lock in receivers it's just not in his process of decision making.

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Brady also plays favorites, which has been a problem. Defenses know that and end up baiting him for INTs.

Rusty Griswold said:

Brady also plays favorites, which has been a problem. Defenses know that and end up baiting him for INTs.

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Brady has about the lowest int % in NFL history so I think you exaggerate.

I'm not sure how you think he plays favorites. He throws to the better receivers more than the worse ones like every NFL QB. He considers Gronk open when he has less separation than he would consider Chris Harper open with. Are you saying that is wrong?
Does Brady make the perfect decision every time? No. But he makes the right decision more often than any QB who has ever played the game. That isn't even disputable.

It's as if you are saying Brady loses to many games when he has the highest win percent ever.

AndyJohnson said:

Brady has about the lowest int % in NFL history so I think you exaggerate.

I'm not sure how you think he plays favorites. He throws to the better receivers more than the worse ones like every NFL QB. He considers Gronk open when he has less separation than he would consider Chris Harper open with. Are you saying that is wrong?
Does Brady make the perfect decision every time? No. But he makes the right decision more often than any QB who has ever played the game. That isn't even disputable.

It's as if you are saying Brady loses to many games when he has the highest win percent ever.

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Yes; but his postseason td/int ratio has skyrocketed since 2007 since he got toys to play with so to speak. It is just a fact.

He is the best qb ever, but he is not without flaws.

His recent afc title games against good Ds, have been poor.

Agree that he is the best ever. I just think he is better with a run game, which is something he has rejected to want to have since 2007 with moss and welker in tow.

He needs to get back under center
more and get to playaction.

It is also a team sport so he has had help from the defense when he has played poorly.

2007 and 2011 title games come to mind immediately

Rusty Griswold said:

Yes; but his postseason td/int ratio has skyrocketed since 2007 since he got toys to play with so to speak. It is just a fact.

He is the best qb ever, but he is not without flaws.

His recent afc title games against good Ds, have been poor.

Agree that he is the best ever. I just think he is better with a run game, which is something he has rejected to want to have since 2007 with moss and welker in tow.

He needs to get back under center
more and get to playaction.

It is also a team sport so he has had help from the defense when he has played poorly.

2007 and 2011 title games come to mind immediately

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Need a respectable running game for play action to work or elite receivers that always get open.

robertweathers said:

Need a respectable running game for play action to work or elite receivers that always get open.

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pats were undefeated with bjge as a lead back in 2010 and 2011.

He was certainly solid enough with a guaranteed no fumbling.

He had only had 8 carries total in sb 46. Painful.

Rusty Griswold said:

pats were undefeated with bjge as a lead back in 2010 and 2011.

He was certainly solid enough with a guaranteed no fumbling.

He had only had 8 carries total in sb 46. Painful.

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That's a tough game to try and dissect because it was so close to working out in our favor. After all, Brady did throw like, 16-17 straight completions (off the top of my head).

I certainly agree with you that we may have benefited greatly by running the ball more, but that didn't seem to be in the gameplan. It would've been nice to see what Ridley could've done, but he started putting it on the ground and never received the opportunity.

Rusty Griswold said:

pats were undefeated with bjge as a lead back in 2010 and 2011.

He was certainly solid enough with a guaranteed no fumbling.

He had only had 8 carries total in sb 46. Painful.

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Had WW, AH and Gronk on those teams too.

BJGE was OK. Nothing special

ivanvamp said:

Wide Receivers (not TEs):
1. Edelman
2. Amendola
3. Hogan
4. Martin
5. Washington
6. Dobson
7. Mitchell
8. Harper
9. Lucien
10. Slater
11. Carter

Slater makes it b/c of special teams. Edelman, Amendola, and Hogan are locks (Hogan less than the other two but still...all three should make it). Assuming they keep 7 guys (including Slater as a STer), that leaves Martin, Washington, Dobson, Mitchell, Harper, Lucien, and Carter for three spots.

Depends on what they're looking for. And there will be a couple of injuries along the way during camp probably, so that will narrow things down. Too tough to say who I would like for those last three spots, because I don't know much about the rookies, but off the top of my head, I think I'd prefer Martin, Washington, and Mitchell. Martin helped out last year. Washington is a solid vet, and Mitchell is very intriguing to me.

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They won't keep 7. 6 tops. That means 5WRs. Edelman, Amendola, Hogan and Mitchell are locks. That means ONE spot for everyone else. My money is on Washington, Lucien to the practice squad.

rochrist said:

My money is on Washington, Lucien to the practice squad.

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You're going to lose your money because Washington is nowhere near practice squad eligible.

Marqui said:

You're going to lose your money because Washington is nowhere near practice squad eligible.

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Read better. I said Lucien to the practice squad.

rochrist said:

Read better. I said Lucien to the practice squad.

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My bad.

robertweathers said:

Had WW, AH and Gronk on those teams too.

BJGE was OK. Nothing special

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If anything it showed that even an average RB can have a really good year with a very good two TE offense.

rochrist said:

They won't keep 7. 6 tops. That means 5WRs. Edelman, Amendola, Hogan and Mitchell are locks. That means ONE spot for everyone else. My money is on Washington, Lucien to the practice squad.

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Mitchell is more of a lock than Martin, who actually produced for them last year?

ivanvamp said:

Mitchell is more of a lock than Martin, who actually produced for them last year?

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I think what Martin did last year is a little overrated.

supafly said:

That's a tough game to try and dissect because it was so close to working out in our favor. After all, Brady did throw like, 16-17 straight completions (off the top of my head).

I certainly agree with you that we may have benefited greatly by running the ball more, but that didn't seem to be in the gameplan. It would've been nice to see what Ridley could've done, but he started putting it on the ground and never received the opportunity.

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Right, but dude, SB 46 is not far off from SB 42 in how it was approached. SB 46 is worse, because of what I typed.

When BJGE started got say, min 12 carries in game, our team never lost. I went back and looked at 2010's game at Pitt for example and saw he was thrown to and used as a lead back and we blew them out on the road.

I know it sounds weird because BJGE was an overachieving guy, but so was Antowain Smith. Each hit the hole quick and hit the right one. That's all you need for Brady. Just move the sticks, 3.5- 4 YPC. That's it.

That's just one example how balanced they were with him, especially after the Moss trade. Brady was OLD GREAT Brady Week 5 - Week 17 in 2010, and that's why he won the MVP. Who would have thought trading MOss would do that? I was relieved Moss was dealt that year. Relieved.

In SB 46, in the 2011 season, we should have known the Giants knew they could rush 4 and drop 7 into coverage and dictate that way. Because that's what they did in SB 42 and EARLIER in Foxborough with another giftwrapped win for them. Brady threw 2 INTs in that game. We lost only because Chung and Spikes went down in the 4th qtr.

They should have used some motion with Gronk or whoever to block and then run some run plays with BJGE over and over in the 3rd with a 17-9, 17-12 and 17-15 lead, it would have weakened the Giants approach, given Brady playaction, and NE would have pulled away with a balanced offense.

It's like they panic because t's a lower scoring, closer game. That's the best way to describe it.

Heck, they were already using Woodhead in the slot as a WR, so he could have motioned back and forth, just leaving BJGE on the field more to run inside, kill clock, not fumble (no Brady INT is likely), etc.

Look at it like this: All 3 of Brady's major gaffes in that game..Take away just one of em? We win it. Again, painful to admit. I put more onus on Brady, than say, Nink jumping offsides on a Sterling Moore INT play, for example. Why? Because the D held the entire game to 13 points, until the end. 13 points! BB's gameplan in that SB would have ALSO been on the wall in Canton for crying out loud. Sterling Moore and Edelman playing CB? As young as that team was? Incredible.

We had leads of 17-9, 17-12 and 17-15, which means the D was doing its job by giving clock but also holding them to FGs.

When the Giants started settling for FGs, I thought we'd win, but we kept subbing BJGE on and off. That's O'Brien and Brady's fault for not seeing it.

If they had gotten BJGE to even 12 carries instead of his obligatory subbed in 8 variety, we win.

The Giants never would have won the TOP (it would have been even or close to it), and they never would have had the clock they had at the end.

ivanvamp said:

Mitchell is more of a lock than Martin, who actually produced for them last year?

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Yes. Bill's never cut a 4th rounder in his first year.

Marqui said:

I think what Martin did last year is a little overrated.

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He has quick bursts out of his cuts, though. He is at least what Boyce should have been doing here, even if a smaller role.

JMC00 said:

Ya sucks Edelman, Gronk, Bennett, Amendola etc. won't be playing those games.

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Well, Randy Moss, Wes Welker Dante Stallworth and Jabar Gaffney played against the Giants in their 1st Super Bowl loss.

I think if they had a consistent running game, they would have counteracted that rush at times, but we'll never know, will we?

Rusty Griswold said:

Disagree.

He's had tons of depth at WR in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2012. 2013 is only when he didn't with Hernandez in jail and Branch done. 2009 was bad with Galloway not working out.

The 2007 team was so loaded Stallworth wasn't even needed in the offense by Week 6. Nor was Gaffney.

In 2012, Lloyd had 74 catches to go with 4 TDs from the X.

Keep in mind Hernandez was much as a receiver as as he was a TE.

LaFell, Amendola and Edelman led the way in 2014.

So, what you're saying is sort of a myth.

Also, BB transformed the offense into a TE based passing offense with Gronk/Hern in 2010.

I would say 2012 was the most loaded the WR corps had been since 2007s WR group.

Edelman
Branch
Lloyd
Welker

That's your top 4 right there in 2012.

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Disagree all you want, you're the one who mentioned stats, not me. And since you couldn't actually be bothered to read the title, I had it reads "Patriots Offense - a plethora of riches? " Yes, the question mark is there for a reason.

2007 - Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney
2008 - Moss, Welker, Gaffney (you consider this depth?)
2010 - Moss (who was traded), Welker, Branch, Tate, Edelman - Edelman didn't do squat with his 7 receptions. And Branch clearly wasn't as good as his previous tenure.
2011 - Welker, Branch, Edelman (with his 4 receptions)
2012 - Welker, Edelman, Lloyd, Branch. Edelman with 21 receptions. Yep I can see how it was the "most loaded".

2013 - Edelman, Amendola, Dobson, Thompkins - Edelman, finally has his breakthrough season.

In 2007 & 2008, if you took away Moss or Welker with injury, this offense would have faltered. Claiming that Gaffney and Stallworth weren't needed shows how you don't understand offenses or the concept of depth.

Do you even understand my reference to 2003 and 2004 when they had Brown, Branch, Givens and Patten?