Would We Be A Good 3-4 Team

mgteich said:

I think that we continuing as primarily a 43 team. However, I think that we would be fine as a 3-t team at this point.

Ninkovich-Knighton-Long
Collins-Hightower-McClellan-Sheard

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Personally I view us a 2-5-4 in the base and a 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 in the subpackage.

mgteich said:

I think that we continuing as primarily a 43 team. However, I think that we would be fine as a 3-t team at this point.

Ninkovich-Knighton-Long
Collins-Hightower-McClellan-Sheard

Click to expand...

I think we are one DE short.

If somehow BB got Miss ST Chris Jones in the draft, I would say yes, using Alan Branch or maybe Trey Flowers with some weight on as a weakside DE in the 3-4, because the linebackers add up.

Frank Kearse has 3-4 DE experience I believe from the Skins. It's not impossible, but by releasing the DTs this year, I thought something was up. Something tells me BB had Hicks pegged as a 3-4 weakside DE in it, but Hicks took the money instead.

3-4 DEs, you want range with the arms and some girth there, a la Seymour, but it's hard to get as is NT, but we have Brown and Knighton, so that part is covered.

Last time BB ran it regularly was 2010, but I think we are 1 3 down DE short at this point.

I still say it's in the works because I truly believe McClellin screams 3-4 WIL and it's why he was signed to a 3 year deal. Think Bruschi when he was out of position at 4-3 DE and OLB, only to thrive at 3-4 MLB once finally moved there.

Right now as the roster is, the best 3-4 look would be this:

Branch, Knighton/Brown, Kearse

Nink, Hightower, McClellin, Collins

Branch is big at 6'6 but he doesn't have "range", so to speak with the long arms.

Valentine might be able to be worked in as a 3-4 DE. At 6'3, 320, he's a bit short, but he may have the arms and power for it.

The problem with the 3-4, IMO, is to get the front 3 to buy into the concept, because it's pretty damn unforgiving. The LBs get all the glory. Between that and the fact it's hard to get good DEs and the NT in it, it's tough to run, which is why it's rare.

miDeuce said:

The 3-4 will no longer be anything more than BB's teaching defense and only used in games in a handful of run-stopping situations as necessary. Nickel is the new base defense, they have multiple defensive backs on the field 70% of the time now. They essentially run a 2-5 "regular" package now now, with the two defensive tackles playing similar two-gapping roles like the front three did in the 3-4. Now there's five linebacker types who can set the edge, rush the passer and cover, and their overall athleticism is greatly higher.

The game has changed too much now to have three down linemen two-gapping now. Not enough athletes on the field, not enough pass rush pressure. If they went back and tried to play 70% of their snaps in the 3-4 (as they did in the 00's) they would get lit up early and often. See 2010, the last time they were at more than 40% snaps in base 34..

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^This, right here. I agree and it's correct, but I do agree the 3-4 is the best way to snuff out the run if that is the feature part of the gameplan, which 9/10 back in the day from 2001-2007 when Seymour was here, BB could just take away a team's run and it was goodnight Irene. The run would be compromised by halftime and the QB would be pressured to throw to win and it would be an INT or two, and it was game over.

So, even though I agree it's not a necessity, the more tools BB has at his disposal to deploy the differing formations, the better our defense is.

Many NFL franchises don't even bother. It's why Bill Polian is so overrated as a GM. He always had 4-3 speed based defenses which weren't great against the run and only played 1 way.

5 SB losses sort of proves the point there.

Ninkovich and Sheard are both substantially better players with their hands on the ground, Long has never played standing up, and they drafted two 4-3 defensive ends with relatively high picks last season. Nothing in their offseason screams 3-4. This was always a media fantasy. Do they have some versatility? Sure. But the base defense is a 4-3 or 4-2-5.

primetime said:

Ninkovich and Sheard are both substantially better players with their hands on the ground, Long has never played standing up, and they drafted two 4-3 defensive ends with relatively high picks last season. Nothing in their offseason screams 3-4. This was always a media fantasy. Do they have some versatility? Sure. But the base defense is a 4-3 or 4-2-5.

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Yep, but I still say it's nice to use the 3-4 when you can. Just saying.

The only thing that screams 3-4 is releasing their good DTs in the 4-3 and acquiring McClellin.

I just wonder if the Hicks thing blew a hole in the 3-4 plans.

VectorPrime said:

I feel that Easley being a total bust really through a wrench into the plans. I'm honestly shocked that no team has even given him some minimum deal. He must be total damaged goods.

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I'm not surprised, the stuff people around the league were saying about his effort and demeanor makes him toxic

3/4 would have worked if we had Wilfork/Warren/Seymour, but times have changed and 4-3 seems to be the better option for our team.
We already have hard times generating enough pass rush with 4/3...imagine what it would be like on a 3/4.
We just don't have the personnel to run a successful 3/4, at least not with our current linemen. If we had a Suh/Nicks/Watt that would have worked.

Rusty Griswold said:

Branch is big at 6'6 but he doesn't have "range", so to speak with the long arms.

Valentine might be able to be worked in as a 3-4 DE. At 6'3, 320, he's a bit short, but he may have the arms and power for it.

The problem with the 3-4, IMO, is to get the front 3 to buy into the concept, because it's pretty damn unforgiving. The LBs get all the glory. Between that and the fact it's hard to get good DEs and the NT in it, it's tough to run, which is why it's rare.

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This, you need 3 giants to be able to play a 3/4 offense. they need to be able to eat up 5 people up front and the linebackers need to be very good at stopping the run.

thecore762 said:

3/4 would have worked if we had Wilfork/Warren/Seymour, but times have changed and 4-3 seems to be the better option for our team.
We already have hard times generating enough pass rush with 4/3...imagine what it would be like on a 3/4.
We just don't have the personnel to run a successful 3/4, at least not with our current linemen. If we had a Suh/Nicks/Watt that would have worked.

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The LB position would, obviously, be covered. As for the DL, they just drafted Valentine who, if he works out, is likely to be a run stuffer DT/NT type. Putting Brown on one end would just leave one more end to cover. The problem is that such a decision would give them their Wilfork (Knighton/Branch to Valentine) and their Warren (Brown), but they'd still need a Seymour, which is why I talked about needing to 'massage' things, earlier in the thread.

There were games last year (at Dallas, for example) where the defensive front was switching between a 4-3 and a 3-4 within the same series. It was amazing to see. Most teams struggle to find players to play one or the other. Somehow BB assembled enough players with positional versatility to flex between the two schemes in the flow of a single game.

With core personnel of Ninkovich - Brown - Branch - Jones - Hightower - Mayo - Collins the front had the ability to flip into 3-4 or 4-3 pre-snap. Must have been infuriating for the offense to decipher.

This year, not having Jones could make this gimmick a little harder to execute. Sheard is too light to play DE in a 3-4...and I'm not really sure Long can do it either.

Was Malcom Brown the Best College 3-Tech DT in Last Year's Draft?

3-4 base:

5T Brown (RE)
1T Knighton (NT)
3T Branch (LE)
7T Ninkovich (LOLB)
9T Long (ROLB)
WLB Hightower
MLB Collins

2-4 passing down:

4iT Brown (DT)
4iT Knighton (NT)
9T Sheard (LOLB)
9T Long (ROLB)
WLB Hightower
MLB Collins

3-4 base:

Defense set for 2019 at least

2017

5T Brown (RE) - 3 more years
1T Valentine (NT) - 2 more years
3T Draft#3 (LE) - 4 more years
7T Ninkovich (LOLB) - 2018 they draft onefuy and replace him
9T Draft #1 (ROLB) - 5 more years
WLB Hightower - extended
MLB Collins - extended

-------------

Butler - extended
Draft#2 - 4 more years
Chung - 2 more years
McCourty - 3 more years

2-4 passing down:

4iT Brown (DT)
4iT Valentine (NT)
9T Sheard (LOLB)
9T Draft#1 (ROLB)
WLB Hightower
MLB Collins

-------------

Butler
Jones
Draft#2
Chung
McCourty

Pretty much irrelevant question. Pats were in sub 70% of snaps last year. THAT is their base. The entire nfl averaged well over 65% last year. Their personnel is much more suited to 4-3. But we know BB likes versatility and multiple fronts. So obviously, we'll see an occasional(might i stress VERY occasional) 3-4 with pot roast, brown and branch.But i dont expect to see much of that.

I don't think Belichick wants to be a base defense team, period. I think he wants to be able to play situational football on defense and what they use will always be specific to whom they are playing and what situations they are in. The other factor that comes into play is who is available on the market, be it draft or free agency. He wants the best players he can get and will take the better player available instead of forcing fits.

Ivan said:

I don't think Belichick wants to be a base defense team, period. I think he wants to be able to play situational football on defense and what they use will always be specific to whom they are playing and what situations they are in. The other factor that comes into play is who is available on the market, be it draft or free agency. He wants the best players he can get and will take the better player available instead of forcing fits.

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And THAT is just one more thing that separates him from every other coach. He can ALWAYS take the best player because no one has to fit his system-because hes so good he can run ANY system. I still havent seen anyone maximize players strengths like him. like its been said a million times: chess vs. checkers

It's still a nickel league, so that will be the most used package. But I think that we will see more defensive formations where we use 3 big DTs, and 4 LBs where the outside LBs are our regular ends. With 4-2-5 being the most used package.

I think that the point of having several big DTs is to get even better at stoping the run from the 4-2-5 nickel package by having a good rotation of several good DTs.

Count me in with those who don't believe Ninkovich and Long will be playing OLB. I think Belichick has constructed the roster to be able to run any Sub package he wants. I'm not sure how all the pieces fit together yet but expect to see every type of defense employee this season, and whatever "base" defense they run will see even less time than last year.