Hold at 60 & 61 or trade a pick?

AzorianPats said:

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if we don't even attempt at drafting a tackle this year.

Solder, Vollmer, Canon, Fleming, Waddle and possibly Mike Williams?

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Let me start by apologizing for breaking this post down into a couple/few statements. The only reason I'm doing it here is because there are a few points that I respectfully disagree with. It isn't meant to come off as a prick or try to drive my (humble) opinion home in an over the top manner.

The above statement is fine except the last 4/6 choices are pretty close to terrible. Cannon has not looked good, with the exception of some acceptable time coming exclusively at RT. Fleming may not even belong on an actual NFL roster. Waddle is our best choice for swing tackle, and even then, he offers nothing but experience and a warm body. He could very well end up cut in training camp, should they pick up another team's roster cut or cap casualty. Even though Mike Williams does have experience at tackle, we've been using him exclusively at TE, so unless they think they can transform his skillset it would be odd that they used him at one position only to bring him back to tackle.

AzorianPats said:

Denver had no regard for our run game. Wade Phillips WANTED us to run, and we still couldn't. His plan all along was to pin Brady back.

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Unfortunately, we've had this conversation a lot lately (in the past 5 years), particularly in the postseason. It's the same blueprint that the Jets, Ravens, and Broncos have used to prevent us from advancing to the SB. It's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, and improving our running game and OL would solve the issue entirely. I know...easier said than done, but I'm still baffled as to how they haven't developed a more efficient running game to help prevent this from happening.

AzorianPats said:

Solder being back and healthy will be a big help, not to mention Scar coaching. Scar might not turn this unit into an elite one, but they won't be a pile of **** like how last year ended.

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The return of Scarnecchia is indeed, big, but a lot of posters seem to forget the fact that he was still very involved in the process. We all know that he still worked out prospects and hand picked draftees, but most people don't realize that he was seen at Gillette very often last season, and even helped to break down film after each game. I'm pretty sure that he talked about this during his Q & A session with season ticket holders or whatever it was, but it was also referenced in an article or two when the news of his return became official a couple of months ago.

supafly said:

Let me start by apologizing for breaking this post down into a couple/few statements. The only reason I'm doing it here is because there are a few points that I respectfully disagree with. It isn't meant to come off as a prick or try to drive my (humble) opinion home in an over the top manner.

The above statement is fine except the last 4/6 choices are pretty close to terrible. Cannon has not looked good, with the exception of some acceptable time coming exclusively at RT. Fleming may not even belong on an actual NFL roster. Waddle is our best choice for swing tackle, and even then, he offers nothing but experience and a warm body. He could very well end up cut in training camp, should they pick up another team's roster cut or cap casualty. Even though Mike Williams does have experience at tackle, we've been using him exclusively at TE, so unless they think they can transform his skillset it would be odd that they used him at one position only to bring him back to tackle.



Unfortunately, we've had this conversation a lot lately (in the past 5 years), particularly in the postseason. It's the same blueprint that the Jets, Ravens, and Broncos have used to prevent us from advancing to the SB. It's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, and improving our running game and OL would solve the issue entirely. I know...easier said than done, but I'm still baffled as to how they haven't developed a more efficient running game to help prevent this from happening.



The return of Scarnecchia is indeed, big, but a lot of posters seem to forget the fact that he was still very involved in the process. We all know that he still worked out prospects and hand picked draftees, but most people don't realize that he was seen at Gillette very often last season, and even helped to break down film after each game. I'm pretty sure that he talked about this during his Q & A session with season ticket holders or whatever it was, but it was also referenced in an article or two when the news of his return became official a couple of months ago.

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Our tackle depth, especially considering how they looked the end of last year, def leaves a lot to be desired, but they've used a good amount of draft capitol at the position the last 4-5 years. Considering Googe lasted only 2 years, I feel BB thinks it was more a coaching issue than a talent one.

Cannon regressed bad since Scarnechia retired. Like I said, do i think Scar as a magic wand that'll automatically turned this unit into an elite one? No, but i think his coaching can help.

I know Scar kept close ties with the team during his retirement. He helped scout lineman, but he wasnt involved in the day-to-day process, at least I dont think?

My view with the struggles of the OL last year had to do with the lack of experience of some of the interior players, and of course injuries. I feel if we can stabalize the interior better (healthy Stork, Mason second year jump, hopefully Cooper has something left in the tank) itll make the tackles job easier.

We agree with the run game. We have the GOAT QB at the helm, and I feel hed be THAT much better if we had a run game.

AzorianPats said:

hopefully Cooper has something left in the tank) .

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Is your idea that after 2 full seasons, Cooper might have nothing left in his 26 year old body?

If it isn't, then it should be.

mgteich said:

Is your idea that after 2 full seasons, Cooper might have nothing left in his 26 year old body?

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I mean he hasnt quite lived up to the hype of being the 7th overall pick in the draft, and injuries are a big part of that. Some guys mentally just dont bounce back from that.

I dont think its far fetched saying that.

mgteich said:

Is your idea that after 2 full seasons, Cooper might have nothing left in his 26 year old body?

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should have been more along the lines of whether or not he is cut out to be an NFL caliber OG.....owuld not be the first time where someone is simply not that good.

as i said before, he was nothing more than a throw in...........unless he steps up

nobody's going to bat an eyelash if he gets cut before the season starts

In light of the realization that no other LG of consequence will be brought here before the draft, I have now changed how I feel about what Bill needs to do regarding the drafting of OLmen.
If all of Christian Westerman, Joe Dahl and Connor McGovern are available at 60/61, then I would attempt to execute a small trade-back for a 4th-rounder, and pick up whoever is still available.
I'm hoping that any one of them would be able to start at LG on Opening Day, thereby moving Shaq Mason to Center, where I believe that he could be a Pro Bowl candidate and where he was worked-out
by the Pats during his pro day last year. His athletic ability would be more of an advantage there, and
his height & length issues would be less of a disadvantage than they would be at LG.
RG can be awarded to whoever among Stork, Jackson and Cooper does the least to lose it, and
Backup RT can be awarded to whoever among Waddle, Fleming & Cannon does the least to lose it.
Stork has the added value of being able to play Center, and Cooper possibly being able to play LG.
As an added benefit, Stork's concussion chances would likely decrease with a move away from Center.
Kline will have a chance to prove that he can stick as a backup-quality LG.
Andrews is already a quality backup Center so far, if or when Stork wins the starting RG position.
Our Backup LT would then be acquired with the 4th-rounder from the previous trade-down. I hope
that one of Joe Haeg, Willie Beaver and Caleb Benenoch will still be available there.

Solder - 2ndRounder - Mason - Stork - Vollmer
4thRounder - Kline - Andrews - Cooper - Waddle
#11 - 14s: Jackson (RG only), Fleming & Cannon (RT/RGs), Chris Barker (LG/RG).

Maybe then try again next year for a starting-caliber LT with a pick as early as our 1st-rounder, if we
still have it by then.
And of course, I know that none of these wishes will be granted me.

captain stone said:

In light of the realization that no other LG of consequence will be brought here before the draft, I have now changed how I feel about what Bill needs to do regarding the drafting of OLmen.
If all of Christian Westerman, Joe Dahl and Connor McGovern are available at 60/61, then I would attempt to execute a small trade-back for a 4th-rounder, and pick up whoever is still available.
I'm hoping that any one of them would be able to start at LG on Opening Day, thereby moving Shaq Mason to Center, where I believe that he could be a Pro Bowl candidate and where he was worked-out
by the Pats during his pro day last year. His athletic ability would be more of an advantage there, and
his height & length issues would be less of a disadvantage than they would be at LG.
RG can be awarded to whoever among Stork, Jackson and Cooper does the least to lose it, and
Backup RT can be awarded to whoever among Waddle, Fleming & Cannon does the least to lose it.
Stork has the added value of being able to play Center, and Cooper possibly being able to play LG.
As an added benefit, Stork's concussion chances would likely decrease with a move away from Center.
Kline will have a chance to prove that he can stick as a backup-quality LG.
Andrews is already a quality backup Center so far, if or when Stork wins the starting RG position.
Our Backup LT would then be acquired with the 4th-rounder from the previous trade-down. I hope
that one of Joe Haeg, Willie Beaver and Caleb Benenoch will still be available there.

Solder - 2ndRounder - Mason - Stork - Vollmer
4thRounder - Kline - Andrews - Cooper - Waddle
#11 - 14s: Jackson (RG only), Fleming & Cannon (RT/RGs), Chris Barker (LG/RG).

Maybe then try again next year for a starting-caliber LT with a pick as early as our 1st-rounder, if we
still have it by then.
And of course, I know that none of these wishes will be granted me.

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Well they worked out McGovern and Dahl, so you never know. I don't see the same need at OG as you, but I really like all three of Westerman, Dahl and McGovern. Wouldn't complain in the slightest if we drafted one of them. I wouldn't spend as early a pick on them as you would though.

I understand; the reason I would now prefer an earlier round pick be spent on a LG is that I don't have
the same confidence in any among the G/Cs currently on the roster being able to play starting LG at the level that Brady needs. Shaq Mason is the best of the bunch, but his height & length issues will always hinder his potential at LG. He could possibly become dynamite at Center, however.

captain stone said:

I understand; the reason I would now prefer an earlier round pick be spent on a LG is that I don't have
the same confidence in any among the G/Cs currently on the roster being able to play starting LG at the level that Brady needs. Shaq Mason is the best of the bunch, but his height & length issues will always hinder his potential at LG. He could possibly become dynamite at Center, however.

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I'd like to see Jon Cooper at least get a shot. Maybe a little less pressure, working under Dante and a more zone blocking scheme will help him get back to where I think he should be.

I'm pretty sure that's Bill's plan too. A combination of Mason, Stork, Cooper & Jackson are probably
the top 3 C/Gs on the depth chart, followed by Kline & Andrews.

captain stone said:

I'm pretty sure that's Bill's plan too. A combination of Mason, Stork, Cooper & Jackson are probably
the top 3 C/Gs on the depth chart, followed by Kline & Andrews.

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And, unless there is another alternative, Andrews is the 5th interior lineman, and backup center.

Yeah, Andrew's job is safer, for now, than Kline's…unless one or both of Mason (my choice) and Cooper
are given serious looks at Center.

The Browns have the first two picks on day 3 (99,100). I wouldn't mind BB getting his hands on those two. Unfortunately giving up 61 for them is too much in terms of the trade chart (292 v 204) and trading 91 isn't enough (obviously).

Here's a way it might happen.

NE trade 61 & 91 (428 points)
CLE trade 77, 99, 100 (409 pts)

Cleveland gets to move up from 77 to 61 and from 99 to 91. Patriots get two early day three picks at a point in the draft at the beginning of day 3 that BB should be able to leverage into, perhaps, a 4th and 5th and even a 2017 day two pick. Whether Cleveland are prepared to sacrifice two decent picks like that to move up from 77 to 61 is a different matter.

Cleveland also has the 65th pick, so I'm not sure that they would be so willing to sacrifice a pick
in order to change from 65, 77, 99 & 100 to 61, 65 & 91. I wouldn't make that trade if I were them.

I'd ask Tampa if they're willing to swap 74 & 108 for 60.

captain stone said:

Cleveland also has the 65th pick, so I'm not sure that they would be so willing to sacrifice a pick
in order to change from 65, 77, 99 & 100 to 61, 65 & 91. I wouldn't make that trade if I were them.

I'd ask Tampa if they're willing to swap 74 & 108 for 60.

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Okay, they lose a pick but by the trade chart, they are gaining in overall value by making that trade.

65,77,99,100 = 674 points
61, 65, 91 = 693 points

From Matt Miller. This would make for an interesting wrinkle:

New England Patriots: The Patriots are a hard team to get solid info on, but one scout said strong safety could be targeted with one of their two Round 2 selections. Scouts familiar with New England's draft plans said the team will target a stand-up pass-rusher to replace Chandler Jones with one of the Day 2 picks.

manxman2601 said:

From Matt Miller. This would make for an interesting wrinkle:

New England Patriots: The Patriots are a hard team to get solid info on, but one scout said strong safety could be targeted with one of their two Round 2 selections. Scouts familiar with New England's draft plans said the team will target a stand-up pass-rusher to replace Chandler Jones with one of the Day 2 picks.

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Another Round 2 Safety? ARE YOU FECKIN KIDDING ME?!?

Please please please, in the name of the sweet Ganja, say it ain't so.
I'll have another heart attack if that happens.

There is no way - NO FECKIN WAY - that a feckin Safety should ever, Ever, EVER be taken ahead of
an OLman this year, E.V.E.R.

captain stone said:

Another Round 2 Safety? ARE YOU FECKIN KIDDING ME?!?

Please please please, in the name of the sweet Ganja, say it ain't so.
I'll have another heart attack if that happens.

There is no way - NO FECKIN WAY - that a feckin Safety should ever, Ever, EVER be taken ahead of
an OLman this year, E.V.E.R.

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Bb loves safeties!