Hold at 60 & 61 or trade a pick?

Unless Bill drafts 3 OTs, neither Vollmer nor Waddle are going anywhere.

captain stone said:

Unless Bill drafts 3 OTs, neither Vollmer nor Waddle are going anywhere.

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You are simply repeating your heartfelt hope that Cannon isn't on the roster.

I'm not sure how I feel about this, but would you do this trade?

Patriots trade picks 60 and 61

to Tennessee for:

Pick 43 (just acquired from the Rams), Jason McCourty and a 2017 4th.


The Titans get an additional 2nd round pick whilst still having 33 and 45 and get to save nearly $12m off their cap over two years. The Patriots get a potentially better player than is available at 60 (it would be Jonathan Bullard for me but you might have a different choice), an experienced CB for a minimum of two years and get to fill the 4th round hole we have in next years draft. Obviously we wouldn't do this trade if the right people weren't on the board.

That would still allow us to draft an OT and RB in the 3rd, Joe Haeg or Kyle Murphy for example.

• Picks 60 and 61 are worth 592 points, pick 43 is worth 470 points.
• Aqib Talib was traded for a 4th round pick. A mid 4th is worth 72 points. Using Talib as an example of the type of value a traded CB might have.
• That leaves a gap of about 50 points which is about right for a 2017 4th.

Just something that occurred to me. Don't like giving up a 2nd rounder but I do like having a better choice of talent in the 2nd and picking up an experienced CB in a draft with not great CB talent.

I don't like that trade. I don't see much difference between what is available at 60 or 43. I also am unsure of the need for McCourty and the salary we would be taking on when we have to pay a myriad of upcoming free agents (inc two cornerbacks).

If there is any trade from 60/61, it will be down. Either to fill the gap between the 3rd and 6th rounds or for a future draft pick.

I can see a DE/DT at 60 (Hassan Ridgeway maybe) and then some combination of LB/CB/RB/OT in the 3rd/4th round (Haeg, J.Williams, S. Davis/C.Jones?). Finally the obvious drafting of Keenan Reynolds in the 5th and then a load of high upside priority free agents in the 6th.

zimmy said:

I don't like that trade. I don't see much difference between what is available at 60 or 43. I also am unsure of the need for McCourty and the salary we would be taking on when we have to pay a myriad of upcoming free agents (inc two cornerbacks).

If there is any trade from 60/61, it will be down. Either to fill the gap between the 3rd and 6th rounds or for a future draft pick.

I can see a DE/DT at 60 (Hassan Ridgeway maybe) and then some combination of LB/CB/RB/OT in the 3rd/4th round (Haeg, J.Williams, S. Davis/C.Jones?). Finally the obvious drafting of Keenan Reynolds in the 5th and then a load of high upside priority free agents in the 6th.

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Fair enough. Ever since we were linked to McCourty last season, I've wondered about a trade this spring. Was just thinking of ways to make it work.

By the by, I would be thrilled with your mock, it's close to perfect. But we could achieve about the same with my trade.

43. Jonathan Bullard or Austin Johnson
91 - trade
96 - Joe Haeg/Kyle Murphy
4th round - RB (williams/Howard)
5th - Reynolds.
Plus McCourty

Obviously McCourty would be costlier but I could see an extension happening which would lessen the cost and keep him here longer.

I suppose the issue is

1. Is there greater value in picking someone at 43 instead of 60? Obviously depends on who. I'm a big fan of Bullard so if he's there then I say yes.
2. Does McCourty offer value over Jones/Davis? He has the experience and is a good fit in terms of character. He's no shut down corner and is more expensive so...?

captain stone said:

Unless Bill drafts 3 OTs, neither Vollmer nor Waddle are going anywhere.

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waddle hasn't shown anything

IllegalContact said:

waddle hasn't shown anything

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Didn't he get injured after his only snap? Whilst literally true, I'm not sure that's giving him a fair shake.

manxman2601 said:

Didn't he get injured after his only snap? Whilst literally true, I'm not sure that's giving him a fair shake.

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he's supposedly a less athletic version of La'Raven Clark......same school, same offense, same position

he may be serviceable as a backup, but that spot needs to be someone who project to develop as a solid starter at this juncture

I like McCourty as a player but in todays market any extension is going to be least $8/10m+ a year.

Firstly, how would that affect Ryan and Butler? Secondly, how does that limit our ability to pay the other big ticket items in Collins, Hightower, Sheard? They will all be getting deals of around 10m a year. Only so much cap room to go round.

I quite like the idea of Sean Davis. Yes he's raw as a cornerback but he can only improve. He offers some flexibility between safety and corner, can match up on big receivers and tight ends. Year 1 he can play in the big nickle, in the role we tried to put Tavon Wilson in.

All in all, I don't want to take on any more cap hits if it jeopardises our chances of keeping our defensive stalwarts.

manxman2601 said:

Didn't he get injured after his only snap? Whilst literally true, I'm not sure that's giving him a fair shake.

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Waddle will be given a fair shake in camp. It would seem that Belichick isn't very sure of his prospects at this point. Otherwise, Cannon would be gone.

As of now, Belichick has lots of different options in the draft. Much depends on how Belichick and Scar evaluate the prospects of Cannon, Waddle, Vollmer and Fleming.

Belichick COULD believe that he has our 2017 starter and backup already on the roster. At the other extreme, he might think that we need to find both a 2017 starter and a swing OT backup.

BELICHICK
could do almost anything. Any of Vollmer, Cannon, Waddle and Fleming could be cut at any point. We just don't have the team evaluations.

My 2cents:

trade one of the #2 picks for either:
<> #3 pick, #4 pick
or
<> #2 pick 2017, #3 pick 2017


Whatever the case, we all agree to get a higher-pick OT (1 or 2 would be nice).
Also, we need to get a higher-pick DT/DE, too.

And please, do not draft anyone that has past knee-issues or history of injuries!

IllegalContact said:

waddle hasn't shown anything

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Absolutely true. Unfortunately - and this highlights how fecked-up Bill has made this OL - Waddle
is the only OT on the roster other than Solder & Vollmer who is even remotely capable of not totally embarrassing himself and getting Brady killed.

Otherwise, I would love to have Waddle & Cannonfodder replaced by 2 OTs who are actually good.

manxman2601 said:

Fair enough. Ever since we were linked to McCourty last season, I've wondered about a trade this spring. Was just thinking of ways to make it work.

By the by, I would be thrilled with your mock, it's close to perfect. But we could achieve about the same with my trade.

43. Jonathan Bullard or Austin Johnson
91 - trade
96 - Joe Haeg/Kyle Murphy
4th round - RB (williams/Howard)
5th - Reynolds.
Plus McCourty

Obviously McCourty would be costlier but I could see an extension happening which would lessen the cost and keep him here longer.

I suppose the issue is

1. Is there greater value in picking someone at 43 instead of 60? Obviously depends on who. I'm a big fan of Bullard so if he's there then I say yes.
2. Does McCourty offer value over Jones/Davis? He has the experience and is a good fit in terms of character. He's no shut down corner and is more expensive so...?

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I think it's a fine trade scenario, but I think Jason McCourty is extremely overrated around here. I'd much rather just retain Logan Ryan to be completely honest, and I'm not a big fan of Ryan either.

PAST THREE SEASONS

Ryan---11 interceptions, 31 passes defended, 3 forced fumbles

J.McCourty---3 interceptions, 22 passes defended, 3 forced fumbles (truncated 2015 season)

captain stone said:

Absolutely true. Unfortunately - and this highlights how fecked-up Bill has made this OL - Waddle
is the only OT on the roster other than Solder & Vollmer who is even remotely capable of not totally embarrassing himself and getting Brady killed.

Otherwise, I would love to have Waddle & Cannonfodder replaced by 2 OTs who are actually good.

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Um, Cameron Fleming?

captain stone said:

Absolutely true. Unfortunately - and this highlights how fecked-up Bill has made this OL - Waddle
is the only OT on the roster other than Solder & Vollmer who is even remotely capable of not totally embarrassing himself and getting Brady killed.

Otherwise, I would love to have Waddle & Cannonfodder replaced by 2 OTs who are actually good.

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In a perfect world, maybe we can draft someone at OT with either 60 or 61, while also grabbing a seasoned vet sometime between now and Sept.? Obviously, the second part is easier said than done, but there may be an opportunity during roster trimming and TC cutdowns.

supafly said:

I think it's a fine trade scenario, but I think Jason McCourty is extremely overrated around here. I'd much rather just retain Logan Ryan to be completely honest, and I'm not a big fan of Ryan either.

PAST THREE SEASONS

Ryan---11 interceptions, 31 passes defended, 3 forced fumbles

J.McCourty---3 interceptions, 22 passes defended, 3 forced fumbles (truncated 2015 season)

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Well not just here, BB did supposedly try and trade for him last season. I was also struck by Devin saying that he and Jason would play together some day. Considering Devin's contract, that would suggest with the Pats.

manxman2601 said:

Well not just here, BB did supposedly try and trade for him last season. I was also struck by Devin saying that he and Jason would play together some day. Considering Devin's contract, that would suggest with the Pats.

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I mean...I think we need to continue trying to hit on draft pick CBs (or hope a guy like Butler falls to us via UDFA), and trading for Jason McCourty would help to solidify that position when the inevitable occurs and L.Ryan takes a better offer. I suppose we could do much worse with seasoned veteran CBs, although I'd be a bit concerned about the salary, etc.

I wonder if Belichick's supposed interest didn't occur after losing Terell Brown? For me, that would make sense considering that L.Ryan started as the CB3-4 last season and Belichick wasn't likely feeling too comfortable with him starting the rest of the season as our CB2.

supafly said:

In a perfect world, maybe we can draft someone at OT with either 60 or 61, while also grabbing a seasoned vet sometime between now and Sept.? Obviously, the second part is easier said than done, but there may be an opportunity during roster trimming and TC cutdowns.

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Wouldn't surprise me one bit if we don't even attempt at drafting a tackle this year.

Solder, Vollmer, Canon, Fleming, Waddle and possibly Mike Williams?

I know our tackles got abused in the AFC championship, but really look back at that game. Denver had no regard for our run game. Wade Phillips WANTED us to run, and we still couldn't. His plan all along was to pin Brady back. Von Miller/Demarcus Ware pinning a QB back every play? No tackle stands a chance with that, not to mention a beat up unit of Vollmer/Cannon.

Solder being back and healthy will be a big help, not to mention Scar coaching. Scar might not turn this unit into an elite one, but they won't be a pile of **** like how last year ended.

AzorianPats said:

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if we don't even attempt at drafting a tackle this year.

Solder, Vollmer, Canon, Fleming, Waddle and possibly Mike Williams?

I know our tackles got abused in the AFC championship, but really look back at that game. Denver had no regard for our run game. Wade Phillips WANTED us to run, and we still couldn't. His plan all along was to pin Brady back. Von Miller/Demarcus Ware pinning a QB back every play? No tackle stands a chance with that, not to mention a beat up unit of Vollmer/Cannon.

Solder being back and healthy will be a big help, not to mention Scar coaching. Scar might not turn this unit into an elite one, but they won't be a pile of **** like how last year ended.

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I think the two TE offense is going to help this OL immensely. The Patriots will be able to go no huddle as much as Brady wants and opposing defense's are going to really struggle with the pace and the mismatches it will create. Running the ball will become easier because defense's will prioritize posing matchups and Gronk and Bennett will add about 550 lbs to the run blocking.

supafly said:

Um, Cameron Fleming?

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Thanks, that brought a smile to my face.

Cameron Fleming…good one.