Mankins: Pats’ O-Linemen Have ‘Rude Awakening’ In Store From Scarnecchia

Froob said:

Also not really ironic .

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He has the best year of his career under a solid o-line coach and two sub-standard ones under a lousy one.

Nothing ironical at all.

robertweathers said:

He has the best year of his career under a solid o-line coach and two sub-standard ones under a lousy one.

Nothing ironical at all.

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Ah I see what you're saying now. I think I may have read it wrong. -1 for me.

mgteich said:

You can choose to worry about any roster spot that you wish. At OT, we have two solid starters, and two OK backups. We have much less at some other positions (e.g RB, CB. We need a developmental OT.

The team does prepare for the possibility that Vollmer will not be available. We have had a veteran backup for years.

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I don't agree that the Patriots have adequate backups at the OT position. Cannon gets out-classed by mediocre DL, and I hate saying that because I'm a huge Cannon fan for what he endured to carve out an NFL career. Fleming was less than impressive last season, but at 23 he's got an upside, and maybe Scarnecchia can bring him along. Fleming is smart, but the Patriots need athletic and nasty on Brady's blind side. Waddle has potential. Maybe Light and Mankins are right about Scarnecchia, and that's the best move that could be made. It would be nice to get a good tackle with one of the 2nd rounders.

When completely healthy, Vollmer and Solder are good, not great starters in 2016. Their combined injury history is disconcerting, and looks to me like a couple of guys showing real wear and tear. If you follow the Bruins, I get the same feeling about Chara and Seidenberg who at one time were among the best pair of defensemen in the NHL. Vollmer may be spent at 31, and Solder has two seasons with illness/injury where he hasn't been close to 100%. At 27, Solder should inspire more confidence. I'm rooting for him to have a great bounceback in 2016.

Froob said:

Ah I see what you're saying now. I think I may have read it wrong. -1 for me.

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Meh. All good.

mgteich said:

I'm not at all worried about OT's for 2016. We have Solder, Vollmer and Scar's chosen backup: Cannon. We also have Waddle. We will likely add a developmental OT through the draft.

I'm OK with Stork as part of our OL.
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THE ISSUE IS AT OG (one of whom needs to be backup center)

Many here thank that we brought in the future last year in Mason, Jackson and Andrews. Perhaps yes, and perhaps no. None of them showed much, certainly not that they were solid NFL starter material.

In any case, if healthy, we should be better than last year. We've added Cooper. I see at least one more veteran for camp.

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I think we take an OT with one of the 2nd rounders IMO.

KontradictioN said:

Hopefully the team can find someone who is worth a damn to take his place once he retires again.

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Instead of hiring someone, can we get a Madame Tussaud's wax figure of scar in the locker room?

I respect Mankins and Lights observations and I welcome Scar back after an offseason to rejuvenate himself.

BUT...

Googs had to play 4 rookies and lost his best LOT and his shifted ROT was also hobbled. I defy anyone including Scar to have produced a polished, fully trained and championship caliber O_line in those circumstances. They still went 12-4 despite the issues.

AzPatsFan said:

I respect Mankins and Lights observations and I welcome Scar back after an offseason to rejuvenate himself.

BUT...

Googs had to play 4 rookies and lost his best LOT and his shifted ROT was also hobbled. I defy anyone including Scar to have produced a polished, fully trained and championship caliber O_line in those circumstances. They still went 12-4 despite the issues.

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Correct. The 2013 o-line under scar was also injured and allowed over 40+ sacks and also had a tough time in Denver during the AFCCG. The game from a couple of months ago was a total replay IMO.

The issue is that we have heard from multiple sources that the players were not prepared to play the game. We also saw players not improve as the season went on but play worse. That we know won't be an issue with a Scar-coached line. If they go down or play poorly it will be because they were outplayed and not by not be prepared.

KontradictioN said:

1. Stephen Neal going down.

2. Nick Kaczur starting.

3. Tom Brady ankle injury.

At no point during Scar's tenure did the Pats OL look nearly as bad as it did in early 2014 and the second half of 2015. At no point during Scar's tenure did the Pats lose a game because the opposing defense had the Pats snapcount down cold.

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There was one Miami game that they did. They had the snap count and the plays down cold. But this was back when Taylor and Thomas were still playing for them..

DaBruinz said:

There was one Miami game that they did. They had the snap count and the plays down cold. But this was back when Taylor and Thomas were still playing for them..

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and MIA had the Pat's cadence and snap counts.

goheels22002 said:

I don't agree that the Patriots have adequate backups at the OT position. Cannon gets out-classed by mediocre DL, and I hate saying that because I'm a huge Cannon fan for what he endured to carve out an NFL career. Fleming was less than impressive last season, but at 23 he's got an upside, and maybe Scarnecchia can bring him along. Fleming is smart, but the Patriots need athletic and nasty on Brady's blind side. Waddle has potential. Maybe Light and Mankins are right about Scarnecchia, and that's the best move that could be made. It would be nice to get a good tackle with one of the 2nd rounders.

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The only "nasty and athletic" guy that you could say Brady had on his blindside was Mankins and the LG is not really considered the blind-side. Light was hardly nasty. Light was tough. Light didn't take anything. But Light also had his fair share of problems with players like Jason Taylor.

Many have claimed that Stork's head-bob was a tell - that's still on the O-line coach because he should have picked it up and corrected it:

Bryan Stork Was Tipping The Snap - Inside The Pylon

DaBruinz said:

There was one Miami game that they did. They had the snap count and the plays down cold. But this was back when Taylor and Thomas were still playing for them..

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That was in 2006. It was Brady's cadence they had down. That was the game with the infamous Belichick quote about technology.

aluminum seats said:

Matt Light would disagree:

“It blows my mind that, really, the game was lost because of a snap count,” Light said. “I don’t think that they practiced their snap count at all, really, to any degree. We went into a game being able to snap silent count five different ways. Not two. Five. And in that game, I watched them on the snap count and I was blown away. You’re handcuffing your tackles, and that’s what happens when you don’t effectively run a silent snap count. And it was terrible to watch.”

“It wasn’t the talent on the field. They could have beat that team with a little bit more preparation and doing things a little better, and it didn’t happen.”

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robertweathers said:

Correct. The 2013 o-line under scar was also injured and allowed over 40+ sacks and also had a tough time in Denver during the AFCCG. The game from a couple of months ago was a total replay IMO.

The issue is that we have heard from multiple sources that the players were not prepared to play the game. We also saw players not improve as the season went on but play worse. That we know won't be an issue with a Scar-coached line. If they go down or play poorly it will be because they were outplayed and not by not be prepared.

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It seems to me that the combination of what Matt Light said (who I would think would know better than anybody apart from BB himself) with BB firing Googs right after the Denver game pretty much speaks for itself.

mgteich said:

I'm not at all worried about OT's for 2016. We have Solder, Vollmer and Scar's chosen backup: Cannon. We also have Waddle. We will likely add a developmental OT through the draft.

I'm OK with Stork as part of our OL.
============
THE ISSUE IS AT OG (one of whom needs to be backup center)

Many here thank that we brought in the future last year in Mason, Jackson and Andrews. Perhaps yes, and perhaps no. None of them showed much, certainly not that they were solid NFL starter material.

In any case, if healthy, we should be better than last year. We've added Cooper. I see at least one more veteran for camp.

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Some people always want to re-fight the last war.

Last year we had to play the drafted offensive linemen in the past two drafts, and were forced to blood four of them as first time rookie starters.. Combined with constant injuries forcing re-juggling throughout the season, the line was hardly a fully trained and competent line.They were limited in the number of silent count methods as Light pointed out.

But they are no longer inexperienced rookies. Indeed they are much more experienced as sophomores than the typical rookies. The line is a past problem; and Cooper can add some more quality.

It is time to turn attention to other problems, like adding some more quality to the offensive skill positions.

AzPatsFan said:

Some people always want to re-fight the last war.

Last year we had to play the drafted offensive linemen in the past two drafts, and were forced to blood four of them as first time rookie starters.. Combined with constant injuries forcing re-juggling throughout the season, the line was hardly a fully trained and competent line.They were limited in the number of silent count methods as Light pointed out.

But they are no longer inexperienced rookies. Indeed they are much more experienced as sophomores than the typical rookies. The line is a past problem; and Cooper can add some more quality.

It is time to turn attention to other problems, like adding some more quality to the offensive skill positions.

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I agree.

We have addressed the interior by bringing in Stork, Jackson, Mason and Andrews.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't sign an experienced guard for camp.

Fans want us to have 5 kids for the interior of our line (the above 4 plus Cooper). belichick sometimes, just sometimes, believes that there is a benefit of having at least one veteran among the five interior lineman. I guess some would keep Kline (the veteran) instead of Andrews.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't draft an OT for 2017.

Solder went on IR,
Stork was on IR,
Vollmer should have gone on IR but hobbled through it too,
Wendle was on IR all season.
Waddle was an average starting LOT for Detroit; but was hobbled coming back too soon; cut, and picked up as a future swing left tackle.
Jackson was injured late in the year, and should have gone on IR.
Mason showed he has possibilities as a pulling G, but needs experience playing pass blocking.
Kline played but as a UDFA, he is limited.
Andrews played as a rookie UDFA and was respectable.
Cooper was a high pick who was injured twice in his first two seasons.

Health is all that is needed, as expereience has been gained.

Patriots Sign Markus Kuhn, Further Boosting Defensive Tackle Depth

We just signed Markus Kuhn, he was a binkie of mine a few years back, if you look at his combine numbers they'd be excellent for an Olineman, I wonder if he winds up getting some snaps there.

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Markus Kuhn

He's not top three, but Scarneccia is on my "greatest Patriots Head Coach" list for his contributions -