Jonathan Cooper before now

AndyJohnson said:

Volmer is injury prone

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No question.

AndyJohnson said:

it appears the plethora of injuries he has sustained has left him as average at best.

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On what do you base that part?

I don't know whether Cooper is permanently broken or can get back to the prospect I loved on tape. I'm hoping for the latter because I re-watched him yesterday and he was an OUTSTANDING zone blocking lineman. And his feet and speed to the second level are quicker even than Shaq Mason. I hope Dante can rediscover his college form.

manxman2601 said:

I don't know whether Cooper is permanently broken or can get back to the prospect I loved on tape. I'm hoping for the latter because I re-watched him yesterday and he was an OUTSTANDING zone blocking lineman. And his feet and speed to the second level are quicker even than Shaq Mason. I hope Dante can rediscover his college form.

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Impossible. I just read from a GM on Patsfans that "Cooper is absolute garbage."

50-yard-line said:

Impossible. I just read from a GM on Patsfans that "Cooper is absolute garbage."

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What gm? Or is this sarcasm?

50-yard-line said:

Impossible. I just read from a GM on Patsfans that "Cooper is absolute garbage."

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To be fair, he might be now - I don't know, I never watched him at Arizona. But he certainly wasn't at North Carolina. He was the dog's wotsits there.

manxman2601 said:

I don't know whether Cooper is permanently broken or can get back to the prospect I loved on tape. I'm hoping for the latter because I re-watched him yesterday and he was an OUTSTANDING zone blocking lineman. And his feet and speed to the second level are quicker even than Shaq Mason. I hope Dante can rediscover his college form.

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If there is anyone in the nfl it would be him.

jimnance said:

What gm? Or is this sarcasm?

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Sarcasm...it was a poster, who's said it several times.

@Wheelman

RICHIE INCOGNITO

JMC00 said:

If there is anyone in the nfl it would be him.

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I hope you are right.

For those that haven't watched him yet:

Firstly, watch the second play on this video. Two blocks at the LOS and then runs 60 yards downfield with Giovani Bernard.



And then watch these.

manxman2601 said:

I hope you are right.

For those that haven't watched him yet:

Firstly, watch the second play on this video. Two blocks at the LOS and then runs 60 yards downfield with Giovani Bernard.

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I wonder if Belichick and Scar watched tape of him in Arizona before purposing the trade and came away thinking that it had something to do with the scheme there.

It's not like Arizona's OL was some great line and Cooper was the weak link. They were actually kind of subpar in pass pro.

Sicilian said:

You seem to be looking at the worst in everyone on the roster. If things were as bad as you are claiming, AND we got hit with the injuries and circumstances that we did, this should have been the worst offense in the league, especially since the offensive injuries were NOT limited to the O-Line. Edelman missed several games, Amendola missed games, Gronk missed a game and a half, Lewis got hurt. Basically every level of the offense was broken by injuries. It may not have been all sugar plums and rainbows if everyone was healthy, but to act like the talent is fundamentally broken and injuries didn't play a role is just being overly pessimistic.

You can act like everyone on the line stinks, that's fine. All I'm saying is when you're trying to evaluate these players under the absolute WORST conditions possible, guys are going to tend to grade lower than they should.

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It surely was one of if not the worst OL in the NFL the last 6-7 games.
Do you forget the Jet game? The Miami game? BB was afraid to run the offense.

But just do this. Look at my evaluation of each player and tell me which you disagree with.
If you can't disagree with much, that is a very poor OL, wouldn't you agree?

I mean the offense being incapable of being run like a professional offense in those games cost us HFA, and ultimately the OL cost us a trip to the SB. I'm not sure why we want to feel good about it.

Fencer said:

No question.



On what do you base that part?

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Vollmer has an unfair rap.

2015- Plays 14 games. High ankle sprain only misses a couple of games. Back by playoffs
2014- Plays 15 games
2013- Plays 8 games and breaks his leg
2012- Plays 15 games
2011- Plays 6 games. Back and shoulder
2010- Played in 16 games
2009- Plays 14 games. Rookie year.

Except for the back issue 5 years ago and a broken leg hes has been reliable.

Fencer said:

No question.



On what do you base that part?

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The way he has played the last 2 years.

JMC00 said:

I wonder if Belichick and Scar watched tape of him in Arizona before purposing the trade and came away thinking that it had something to do with the scheme there.

It's not like Arizona's OL was some great line and Cooper was the weak link. They were actually kind of subpar in pass pro.

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I've been curious to know what type of blocking system the Cards have. I don't know whether BB/Scar envisage Cooper as a starter or as a makeweight backup. I'm hoping for a starter obviously because Cooper/Mason are as athletic as they come - ideal for Dion Lewis to run behind.

AndyJohnson said:

You can make as many injury excuses as you want but the bottom line is that the players we have in the OL have not shown any proof they are good.
What do you disagree with below.

Solder is above average but the nature of his injury is worrisome

Volmer is injury prone and it appears the plethora of injuries he has sustained has left him as average at best.

Stork was an avg center in 14 and below bag in 15.

Every G who played last season was below average and as a group probably the worst in the NFL.

Cannon stinks.
Waddle was cast off by the Lions and resigned with us for cheap meaning no one out there considers him starter caliber.

If the 1976 Tampa bay bucs had more injuries than any team ever you could try to use that as an excuse but the talent they had wasn't any good healthy or not.

We have to be carful blaming injuries when the majority of the injured players played like crap when they were healthy.

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I'll quote this again in response to your latest post, since you asked me which evaluations I disagree with.

I disagree that Vollmer is average at best, given that by season's end he was forced to play out of position with a never ending rotation of players at LG

I disagree that Stork was average in 14. He was very good in 14. No doubt he took a step back in 15 and needs to take a step back up this year.

I won't disagree that the G play last year was sub par. I however put more stock in player development, especially with this coaching staff's track record. Players not drafted in the first two rounds tend to take a year or two before the coaching staff gets the best out of them. Given some of the praise Belichick has heaped on Mason's physical tools, I'm willing to bet he can be solid. Doesn't mean you don't need some competition to help push them (and as insurance), but just saying they stink is short sighted. Not every player hits the ground running in their rookie season.

Cannon stinks. I agree 100%.

Who wants Waddle to be a starter? I know I've seen you argue this point with other posters regarding other positions, you CAN'T have starting caliber players backing up all of your other starters. Waddle may not be the final answer at swing tackle either, but citing "no one out there considers him starter caliber" as a knock against a reserve player seems to be too harsh.

And again, I'm not saying all these players will magically play like pro-bowlers if no one gets hurt, just that it's really difficult to evaluate O-Linemen objectively given the fact that there was zero chance for any of these players to settle in, gel, and develop together as a unit. Hell, it's hard to evaluate O-Linemen in general.

Sicilian said:

I'll quote this again in response to your latest post, since you asked me which evaluations I disagree with.

I disagree that Vollmer is average at best, given that by season's end he was forced to play out of position with a never ending rotation of players at LG

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OK. I think he used to be better than average, but has not been for a couple of years.

I disagree that Stork was average in 14. He was very good in 14. No doubt he took a step back in 15 and needs to take a step back up this year.

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Regardless of 14, we agree he needs to be much better, and has the potential to be.

I won't disagree that the G play last year was sub par. I however put more stock in player development, especially with this coaching staff's track record. Players not drafted in the first two rounds tend to take a year or two before the coaching staff gets the best out of them. Given some of the praise Belichick has heaped on Mason's physical tools, I'm willing to bet he can be solid. Doesn't mean you don't need some competition to help push them (and as insurance), but just saying they stink is short sighted. Not every player hits the ground running in their rookie season.

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This is where we go from evaluation to hope. Of course every player on the team could improve, but these guys didn't play well, have massive questions surrounding them and were not exactly high picks that should have a high rate of success. I was more optimistic about them last June than I am today, because their play has made me feel they are less likely to become good players than I expected.

Cannon stinks. I agree 100%.

Who wants Waddle to be a starter? I know I've seen you argue this point with other posters regarding other positions, you CAN'T have starting caliber players backing up all of your other starters. Waddle may not be the final answer at swing tackle either, but citing "no one out there considers him starter caliber" as a knock against a reserve player seems to be too harsh.

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didn't say he has to be, just evaluating the player.

And again, I'm not saying all these players will magically play like pro-bowlers if no one gets hurt, just that it's really difficult to evaluate O-Linemen objectively given the fact that there was zero chance for any of these players to settle in, gel, and develop together as a unit. Hell, it's hard to evaluate O-Linemen in general.

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And my perspective is the OL cost us a SB and I would hate to sit back and just hope they play better.
I think even with our disagreements on the individual players, we can agree the talent level is a major concern.

50-yard-line said:

Impossible. I just read from a GM on Patsfans that "Cooper is absolute garbage."

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he was garbage.....before being traded to the pats


he is now awesome

AndyJohnson said:

And my perspective is the OL cost us a SB and I would hate to sit back and just hope they play better.
I think even with our disagreements on the individual players, we can agree the talent level is a major concern.

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Yeah, I think we can agree there for sure. OL was actually my primary area of focus when thinking about the team's offseason needs. I think there's two ways to go about that (additional bodies and improving the players who are already here), and I probably weigh it a little heavier towards the latter than you do.

Sicilian said:

Yeah, I think we can agree there for sure. OL was actually my primary area of focus when thinking about the team's offseason needs. I think there's two ways to go about that (additional bodies and improving the players who are already here), and I probably weigh it a little heavier towards the latter than you do.

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Scares me to see bad and hope for improvement. I'd rather 'waste' the money to sign a guy who is as good as say Mason would be with the improvement you hope for and let him try to beat him out. When its your largest weakness, hedging your bets is a good idea.

Does he really have an 11M option to pick up? What are the details of that?