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NFL Appeal oral arguments thread


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Based on chin's comments it will come down to Parker.
Well none of us, myself included, know what we're talking about, so I'll just chime in that I thought Chin's questions suggested he was trying to shoot holes in the argument that he favored by making those comments and asking Kessler those questions. In other words, I think he leans to upholding Berman and was playing Devil's Advocate against himself. Unfortunately, instead of methodically addressing his questions, Kessler lost his cool, which is never a good thing to do with Federal Judges.
 
Well none of us, myself included, know what we're talking about, so I'll just chime in that I thought Chin's questions suggested he was trying to shoot holes in the argument that he favored by making those comments and asking Kessler those questions. In other words, I think he leans to upholding Berman and was playing Devil's Advocate against himself. Unfortunately, instead of methodically addressing his questions, Kessler lost his cool, which is never a good thing to do with Federal Judges.

Part of me thinks chin made his comment just to get under kessler's skin - I mean he knows the facts of the case - including whether or not Brady is guilty - is not up for debate on appeal.
 
No chance he would drop the defamation suit. Basically I believe that suit is not just for him but for the whole Patriots nation. I think I'd be just as pissed if he dropped it as I am pissed with Kraft. No way he drops it in some deal. If the reason is there is no way of putting forward such a case then that is different.
Did I miss something? Has he filed a defamation suit? I mean, you can't "drop" a suit if it hasn't been filed.
 
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if he was extremely angry with Kessler with how things went down.
I'm still trying to find the transcript of the entire proceeding, but from the extended excerpts that have been published, he would have every reason to be unhappy with Kessler's performance. His answers were unclear and at times unintelligible. He seemed befuddled by the entire proceeding. At one point, Katzmann actually jumps in to bail him out. Finally, he lost his cool.

I'll withhold judgment until I read the unedited transcript, but there's a very bad strain of the Flu going around NYC. Perhaps he was ill. If so, he should have allowed Johnson to handle the arguments. Otherwise, he comes across like a deer in the headlights.
 
Part of me thinks chin made his comment just to get under kessler's skin - I mean he knows the facts of the case - including whether or not Brady is guilty - is not up for debate on appeal.
If he did it to get under Kessler's skin, he succeeded. In fact, Appeals Court and Supreme Court judges frequently try to throw attorneys off by annoying them, just to test the strength of their arguments by forcing them to articulate their case clearly and logically under duress.

Appellate Attorneys are a different breed of cat. Nothing rattles them. They know they have a short window of time and that the game is to stay focused on the issues and bring the answer to every question or comment, no matter how absurd, back to the points you are trying to make.

Clement has appeared before the Supreme Court dozens if not hundreds of times and is used to parrying annoying and occasionally obnoxious questions from as diverse a crew as John Roberts, the late Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, three of the greatest legal minds of a generation (or two). For him dealing with Katzmann, Chin and Parker was child's play, but Kessler seemed in over his head, an opinion that I am prepared to change after I finally can read the entire transcript unedited and uneditorialized.
 
Then for all you Kraft bashers guess what? The NFLPA and there representation "bent over" to allow a sociopathic megalomaniac to have his Article 46 powers when they caved signing the new CBA knowing that the "New Sherriff in Town" would ultimately abuse his powers. For all your whining about Kraft, what about De Smith and Eric Winson? Where's there culpability in all this mess? They buckled on that point for a few dollars more.

I'm not whining about Kraft, but this is a spurious argument. The "Article 46" disciplinary powers of the commissioner existed under a different name long before the new CBA, and they were never a focus of the negotiations because no commissioner (including Goodell himself) had previously chosen to abuse those powers so the NFLPA had no reason to believe they would be abused in the future. The narrative that the NFLPA buckled to the owners by agreeing to grant the commissioner sweeping new powers that they knew he would abuse has very little factual basis.

Commissioner’s power under Article 46 has been present since the first CBA
 
I'm not whining about Kraft, but this is a spurious argument. The "Article 46" disciplinary powers of the commissioner existed under a different name long before the new CBA, and they were never a focus of the negotiations because no commissioner (including Goodell himself) had previously chosen to abuse those powers so the NFLPA had no reason to believe they would be abused in the future. The narrative that the NFLPA buckled to the owners by agreeing to grant the commissioner sweeping new powers that they knew he would abuse has very little factual basis.

Commissioner’s power under Article 46 has been present since the first CBA
Yes, but 1968 was a very different time. A lot of things have changed, even since the days of Tagliabue, let alone Rozelle.

Players' conduct has changed, with the times. Society's standards have become much more tolerant of what would have been considered abhorrent to the public eye in 1968. In addition, what used to be "kept quiet" or easily (and wrongly) swept under the rug now occurs in the full light of a 24/7 internet and multi-media spotlight.

Most importantly, there is now very, very big money in the game. The owners today are fantastically wealthy people. Excessive wealth is often accompanied by a sense of omnipotence. According to Forbes, the 32 owners now possess Franchises with a Market Value of $70 billion, with significant annual growth and extremely high levels of revenues and operating profits. These guys don't feel that they are accountable to anyone.

So, Article 46 might have worked in another time and another era, but it no longer works. Goodell is the hired help, whose actions are driven by a handful of greedy and at times spiteful owners, who pay him $30 or $40 million per year to do exactly what they tell him to do it, when they tell him to do and exactly as they tell him to do it.

In that environment, Article 46 needs to be drastically changed and there needs to be provision for a permanent, independent arbiter or, in some cases, board of arbiters.

Allowing the owners to have a Commissioner as a puppet on their string to carry out their personal agendas no longer works:
Ray Rice? "Boys will be boys and we all like the Ravens so let him skate...oops there was a tape."
Bountygate? "The Saints aren't really part of the inner circle of the club, so **** them?"
Incognito? "Bullying a black guy from an Ivy-League-quality school looks bad. **** him too."
Belichick? "He's not one of the good old boys and he's making us all look bad by winning so many Super Bowls. Time for him to have his comeuppance." [technically doesn't apply since he's not a player, but it makes the point]
Brady? "Nobody can be that good. He had to be cheating. **** him."
Peyton? "He can do no wrong. Look the other way until he retires."

Kessler saw this in 2011 and wanted the Players to strike over changing the provision. He was right. It's time for change. Blaming Goodell doesn't work. It's the owners. If we had our way and Goodell was ****canned, they'd just find another errand boy.
 
If he did it to get under Kessler's skin, he succeeded. In fact, Appeals Court and Supreme Court judges frequently try to throw attorneys off by annoying them, just to test the strength of their arguments by forcing them to articulate their case clearly and logically under duress.

Appellate Attorneys are a different breed of cat. Nothing rattles them. They know they have a short window of time and that the game is to stay focused on the issues and bring the answer to every question or comment, no matter how absurd, back to the points you are trying to make.

Clement has appeared before the Supreme Court dozens if not hundreds of times and is used to parrying annoying and occasionally obnoxious questions from as diverse a crew as John Roberts, the late Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, three of the greatest legal minds of a generation (or two). For him dealing with Katzmann, Chin and Parker was child's play, but Kessler seemed in over his head, an opinion that I am prepared to change after I finally can read the entire transcript unedited and uneditorialized.

Man I'm going to be sick.
 
He won't. he loves playing and will just do what he has to and move on, he's very zen, he knows the truth and can live with himself. He's been called an odd duck by teammates, I think this stuff bothers most of us more than it bothers him.

That's what he want us to believe. It's all about appearances and PR. He was having problems at home, even Gi admitted that much, but they got through it. Brady also looks a bit gaunt and harsher in the face, compared to most men his age, with free access to spas and age clinics. A can of mud, can't hide the truth, ask Dorian Gray. Brady can smile and PR his Zen ish through the roof, but I he's worried and he's tired of being labeled a cheater and tired of being disrespected. It fuels him.

I don't know if he's innocent or not, all I know, is that the NFL went out of their way to bring him down, because he got too big for their Brady vs Manning rivalry and that is what was detrimental to the league. They knew about him, with approval from coaches, possibly deflating balls before and didn't care. It wasn't that big of a deal, I'm sure he's not the only QB who likes his balls outside the legal limit, see Rodgers.

I do question Brady's innocence, at times, because Brady's lawyers used the law of the shop defense to defend him, instead of actually prove his innocence of deflating balls. Brady never gave the league, information regarding missing text messages with the equipment manager in November or December, because they couldn't recover those, after he discarded his phone. Brady's response to questions concerning those conversations are "I don't remember." Clear BS. Brady told lawyers that his assistant destroyed his phone, when asked for specifics or locations, he just said, I don't know. My assistant did it, or something to that effect. Both sides are covering their tails, it's obvious why the NFL is doing it, it doesn't make sense that Brady is doing it, considering he's innocent, maybe he's making himself appear guilty to hide something else, like infidelity, it's not good for his image or Gisele's. I'm just trying to be objective. Due to the lack of evidence and the 4 game suspension thing, which can't be justified based on the fact that

1. This is a first offense for Brady. Spygate was about Belichick and Wells exonerated him in the report.
2. Rule book says it's an equipment violation, subject to a maximum fine. No mention of a suspension.

This mess needs to be over and should've been over. Brady's going to win this case, because Berman's ruling is logical based on the law of the shop argument. No way they overturn it. The media is just overreacting as usual, because it riles up consumers and sells papers.
 
I don't know if he's innocent or not,

latest
 
Dan Wallach said two days ago that he had an audio recording and was going to get it transcribed. Seems to be taking a while.
 
We all must not come to any conclusions. Wait for the outcome. I get concern when I hear a judge say "(overwhelming evidence the balls were tampered with" Why am I concern because I never heard this before in this case and I have always said that nothing happens to the footballs that the QB doesn't know about. In addition I have always said it was a very bad move to destroy the cell phone. So now there is two truths bring questioned about Brady telling the truth. In addition Brady has shown he is too big to say or do the right think, like rules are for everyone else that's the impression non Pats fans have about him. We shall see what happens.
 
I still have a hard time believing that the three judges can over turn ALL 3 of bermans rulings. even if they uphold 1 of the rulings, bermans ruling stands. and it would be pretty strange for three judges to basically say berman was wrong on all three counts.
 
1- There is no defamation suit.

2- Brady had conducted himself with exceptional composure throughout this.

3- The NFL had lied repeatedly throughout this matter and lied in court the other day.

4- The same lawyer's who claimed the questioning doesn't indicate how the court will rule are now claiming three questions indicate how they will rule.

5- The Patriots owners need to come out swinging and rebut the lies the league proffered too the court the other day.
 
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1- There is no defamation suit.

2- Brady had conducted himself with exceptional composure throughout this.

3- The NFL had lied repeatedly throughout this matter and lied in court the other day.

4- The same lawyer's who claimed the questioning doesn't indicate how the court will rule are now claiming three questions indicate how they will rule.

5- The Patriots owners need to come out swooning and rebut the lies the league proffered too the court the other day.
Florio says in his podcast that the league smeared Brady in his briefs and it worked in the 2nd circuit hearing and kessler shouldve somewhat expected that the hearing will go in the direction of the facts of the case which the judges seem to do reading the briefs instead of just CBA procedure and he was caught off guard. He has a point. Even one one judge said they are only responding to the briefs .
 
I really can't believe America could be this stupid.

If these judges overturn Berman and allow the despicable NFL office to win, even though their case is, was and will always be dogsh*t, I won't know what to even think about this justice system.

This has been a slanderous witch hunt from the start, filled with fake information and defamation. To actually overturn this decision would be a crime all of its own.
 
If he did it to get under Kessler's skin, he succeeded. In fact, Appeals Court and Supreme Court judges frequently try to throw attorneys off by annoying them, just to test the strength of their arguments by forcing them to articulate their case clearly and logically under duress.

Appellate Attorneys are a different breed of cat. Nothing rattles them. They know they have a short window of time and that the game is to stay focused on the issues and bring the answer to every question or comment, no matter how absurd, back to the points you are trying to make.

Clement has appeared before the Supreme Court dozens if not hundreds of times and is used to parrying annoying and occasionally obnoxious questions from as diverse a crew as John Roberts, the late Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, three of the greatest legal minds of a generation (or two). For him dealing with Katzmann, Chin and Parker was child's play, but Kessler seemed in over his head, an opinion that I am prepared to change after I finally can read the entire transcript unedited and uneditorialized.
Florio said maybe kesselr shouldve let an appellate lawyer who is far away from the case emotionally do the talking instead of himself. I guess kessler was caught off guard with the line of questioning which seemed to stem from the briefs the nfl submitted. Regardless, chin saying there was overwhelming evidence was a bombshell no one expected to hear. Was absurd.
 
Regardless, chin saying there was overwhelming evidence was a bombshell no one expected to hear. Was absurd.

He didn't say there was overwhelming evidence, he said 'compelling, if not overwhelming', which has been interpreted by people who actually heard the audio as 'compelling but not overwhelming'. So don't jump off the bridge yet.
 
Florio says in his podcast that the league smeared Brady in his briefs and it worked in the 2nd circuit hearing and kessler shouldve somewhat expected that the hearing will go in the direction of the facts of the case which the judges seem to do reading the briefs instead of just CBA procedure and he was caught off guard. He has a point. Even one one judge said they are only responding to the briefs .


I think that's exactly what happened. Clement exploited the fact that the judges wouldn't be familiar with the facts and lied and misrepresented them to the court. The only way the Brady side can rebut this is through a letter to the court outlining the lies Clement told and backing them with the appeal transcript, and by going public and slamming the lies by the league throughout this matter. The Patriots have a number of areas they can go after and they should hammer the league's with them. From the lies about Brady's testimony to the science and the repeated misrepresentations about Brady as ringleader of a conspiracy that never happened it's time for the Patriots to use the Wells Report In Context and make it a public lynching of the league office. And although I have been really skeptical about Brady filing a defamation suit I think the lies that the NFL just proffered to the court of appeals demands a response and a defamation suit may be the best way for him to go public with his side.
 
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