NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

QuantumMechanic said:

That's not particularly surprising. Lots of lawyers have gotten their asses kicked by Clement. Clement is a high-powered appellate (esp SCOTUS) lawyer. Cream of the cream. Stuff like this is literally his entire job and he's pretty much unanimously regarded as being really, really good at it.

I'm actually surprised Kessler did the orals and thought so from the moment I heard it would be Kessler arguing today and not Johnson. The skill sets for appellate and trial appearances are rather different.

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they kept going on and on about the stupid phone.
even though it's not required to give up your phone. do the district judges know that??

SVN said:

NFL made a strong case to beat Tom Brady on appeal

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After reading this, I'm fully convinced that the judges were either highly uninformed or toying with Kessler, just for fun.

To me, this reads as if Kessler responded well to all their questions, but the judges stubbornly didn't want to believe anything he was telling them. They asked him hypotheticals, then deemed his answers as too "hyper technical". How is that possible in a court of law?

As for the whole "destroying of the phone", Kessler clearly ends that notion by stating that Brady had supplied all texts messages and emails, which seems to be the key fact everyone, including federal judges like to completely ignore. Why do you need the physical device when you have the actual information from it that is needed? It seems they didn't make a snarky remark after that point from Kessler.

Also, they seemed equally as critical of Clement and the NFL. So I'm not really sure where the "big win" was for the league, that all the "experts" are saying happened.

I don't think Keslser was a problem, at least from McCann's summary. He actually seemed to do really well from what I gather.

I honestly think all these "experts" we're expecting a slam dunk grilling of the league and the league alone, since the tide has turned, and were surprised to get an equal hard press towards the NFLPA, hence the "overreaction" we're getting.

BelichickFan said:

In my dreams, any game at Gillette without TB12 would have no fans at the stadium. However I had the same dream about Kraft being booed.

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Despite how badly Kraft botched the lost draft picks it's hard to boo the owner of a Super Bowl champion in their first game back. But now some time has passed and a Brady suspension TWO SEASONS after the fact would add huge insult to injury. I think some kind of significant fan action would be appropriate.

@Deus Irae Did you read Michael McCann's latest article? If so what is your take? It seems to be a lot more level headed than what most of us are doing and thinking on here.

QuantumMechanic said:

That's not particularly surprising. Lots of lawyers have gotten their asses kicked by Clement. Clement is a high-powered appellate (esp SCOTUS) lawyer. Cream of the cream. Stuff like this is literally his entire job and he's pretty much unanimously regarded as being really, really good at it.

I'm actually surprised Kessler did the orals and thought so from the moment I heard it would be Kessler arguing today and not Johnson. The skill sets for appellate and trial appearances are rather different.

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B.S.

I'm not a lawyer and you know what I say to Chin? "Your Honor, I ask you to explain what evidence is so called "compelling if not overwhelming?". "I have numerous articles written by the giants of sports media, Peter King as one, who have recently lobbied for the Pats picks to be given back due to a serious lack of evidence?". "Yet you, for some unknown reason appear to know something the rest of the world doesn't".

To me that's a hostile statement from the bench that warrants a question to flesh out the foundation of that belief. Chin opened himself up for ridicule or embarrassment and it appears Kessler didn't take advantage.

QuantumMechanic said:

That's not particularly surprising. Lots of lawyers have gotten their asses kicked by Clement. Clement is a high-powered appellate (esp SCOTUS) lawyer. Cream of the cream. Stuff like this is literally his entire job and he's pretty much unanimously regarded as being really, really good at it.

I'm actually surprised Kessler did the orals and thought so from the moment I heard it would be Kessler arguing today and not Johnson. The skill sets for appellate and trial appearances are rather different.

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Exactly. Maybe Johnson has a lousy relationship with the judges but if thats the case why would be be there? Maybe they felt Kessler could offer more depth to the responses. I don't have a clue but seems to me you want your best pilot flying the fighter.

Well if anyone wants a little piece of good news.....Lester Munson has already given his doom and gloom for Brady......so we have that going for us at least.

ANGR89 said:

Well if anyone wants a little piece of good news.....Lester Munson has already given his doom and gloom for Brady......so we have that going for us at least.

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that old bastard is bound to get something right. unfortunately, it might be this.
where's the other espn guy?? cant think of his name at the moment...

As per the Jenkins/Blecker article, the court can still redeem itself, via a decision that says in effect

"The NFL's fact-finding process was too flawed to be acceptable."

Now, Berman didn't rule on that directly. But two of the three issues he did rule on boil down to "The league didn't give Brady a fair chance to defend himself against the accusations."

Yes, the consensus view is that Berman had to defer to the league on facts, and hence mainly ruled against them on punishment. But that's not all that actually happened.

TommyBrady12 said:

Steffen johnson

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Right. His name escaped me.

I'm struggling to understand why he wasn't the lead.

Deus Irae said:

Again....

No

Here's what you wrote:



That's simply not accurate, and Stradley did not say that it was.

And you replied to me via a personal shot, as you have done on more than one occasion. The next time you decide to go pointing to the speck in my eye, you might first want to take the plank out of your own.

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You s9imply can't understand basic English, and besides that you do what you always do, which is try to change the subject when you are caught out. I wrote the basis of Berman's decision is that despite the deference the contract gives to an arbitrator, they are still beholden to the facts. Which is why he was such a stickler about the facts in the first case. Bradley says that the facts matter. I said that the facts matter. You seem to think they are irrelevant. They are the entire basis for this case no matter what you say. Bradley agrees with me, and I find her infinitely more trustworthy than you, and you think that's a personal attack, but given your behavior on these forums over the years, it's crazy that you would ever expect otherwise.

Fencer said:

But that's not all that actually happened.

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Exactly!!!!

Bobsyouruncle said:

Haven't read the whole thread but I'm hearing Chin is doing his best to break the stereotype that Asians are good at math.

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I can't imagine how sensitive someone would have to be to find this offensive.

Im still confused here. Berman didnt rule on the facts only on the process and his ruling stated that the nfl didnt follow their process.

How can the appellate court rule on facts? And if they overturn bermans ruling, doesnt that mean goodell can do whatever he wants? Despite the cba?

@QuantumMechanic

Explain yourself. Why is what I said wrong?

I'm open for the critique.

Todd Bradley said:

Also, they seemed equally as critical of Clement and the NFL. So I'm not really sure where the "big win" was for the league, that all the "experts" are saying happened.

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Ya not sure I get the people saying Clement kicked Kessler's ass.. Clement got knocked around some too by the judge according to reports.

this is even more proof that brady should of boycotted that ridiculous SB ceremony.

blackglass3 said:

@Deus Irae Did you read Michael McCann's latest article? If so what is your take? It seems to be a lot more level headed than what most of us are doing and thinking on here.

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I've read it, but I'm going to hold off commenting on it until I've read the transcript. The differences between what was actually said (and transcribed) and what we've seen as summaries are enough that I don't want to get too far ahead of things.

In reading the transcript, I won't be seeing body language, hearing inflection, or the like, but I'll at least be getting an accurate account of what was actually said.

McCann discusses today's events. 13 minute video initial discussion then answers questions.



in short, he thinks Katzmann favors Brady, Parker favors NFL, Chin unsure but leaning towards NFL.

McCann doesnt understand why they went into cell phones so muchtoday. also talked about how little Berman's arguments were covered.

Considering Trump is likely to be the next POTUS, and he unequivocally backs Brady, Kraft, and the Pats... If I'm a federal judge I'm thinking that ruling against Brady could be a career-limiting move.