NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

Mack Herron · Mar 3, 2016

Deus Irae said:
One of the people who'd been in the courtroom said that Kessler really had no chance to put forth a real argument, because he was peppered with questions and interrupted so much.

Having said that, I'm with you. I'm really hoping to get a crack at the transcript.

Deus Irae · Mar 3, 2016

Mack Herron said:

Sweet!

YOUGOTMOSSED · Mar 3, 2016

Todd Bradley said:
Agreed.

Which is why for the life of me I can't understand all the horror stories that are coming out, especially from those who PRACTICE LAW FOR A LIVING!

Brady's phone has nothing to do with anything they're ruling on now. It was useful information during the original case, but for this appeal, it means nothing.

I can't understand why people like McCann are inferring the NFL has the upper hand based on a line of questioning that has nothing to do with the actual appeal based on fairness and due process.

The judges can believe Brady had Jestremski and McNally crash the Hindenburg, but that has nothing to with whether or not the original investigation and his subsequent punishment was handled correctly by Goodell.

If you want to keep a happy thought, it's 100% true that judges do sometimes give the side they've already decided in favor of an extra hard time during oral argument. I dunno, I guess it's how they get their "judge jollies."

I can just imagine Chin going up to Parker before oral argument and saying "Yo! BDP! Want to see me mess with Kessler and get my name mentioned for weeks on ESPN?!?!?! hehehehe"

moejr · Mar 3, 2016

Well I don't like what I am reading and can say that if Brady does have to serve a 4 game suspension our chances of winning the SB next year are drastically reduced

Jlaff · Mar 3, 2016

reflexblue said:
I haven't read most of the tweets and comments, but from i what i have read it sounds like these judges re-tried brady instead of focusing on what berman used to make his ruling last august. the fact that one judge stated that there was overwhelming evidence that brady tampered with the balls when the best that wells could come up with was 'generally aware of''makes me think this is a bag job on behalf of the nfl. It seems to me they should have been asking why about lack of due process or seeing jeff pash's notes. which are two of the reasons berman ruled in favor of brady.

Exactly. Wells couldn't even manufacture enough circumstance and evidence to find "compelling, if not overwhelming", but this Obtuse Judge Chin waddles in and now we're nearly at beyond a reasonable doubt?

Plunkett2Vataha · Mar 3, 2016

I just want to throw a quick comment on the Chin "overwhelming evidence" quote. This may be only a 1% chance of actually being true, but could the comment be stated in normal tones on the outside, but strictly a sarcastic tone on the inside? Seriously, who with any shred of intelligence (outside of unabashed Patriots haters) thinks there was overwhelming evidence of football deflation? The judge may have been toying with the NFL side by stating this to Kessler. Especially, as noted earlier by another poster, that the NFL side admitted under oath to Judge Berman that there was no direct evidence to prove that Brady participated in a scheme to deflate footballs.

moejr · Mar 3, 2016

We should check these judges to see what teams they root for. They could all be Jets fans and be against us completely.

SVN · Mar 3, 2016

Snapshot of Deflategate Second Circuit Argument - Stradley Law Firm

her first impression is that it doesnt look good for brady

It Doesn’t Look Good For Brady. The types of questions that the NFLPA received suggest that they didn’t get the NFLPA’s argument at all, and the underlying legal and factual arguments relating to that. Some of the discussion of the evidence and phone sounded like a mistatement of what the record said, even beyond what the NFL said the evidence was.

Sometimes judges offer devil’s advocate kinds of questions, but at least as reported, it didn’t sound like that. The record is pretty big, and it is easy to get the details wrong as I’m very familiar with it and that sometimes happens to me.

Also to be fair to the judges, I think the briefing that the NFLPA did at the Judge Berman level was more focused on how the facts related to the law than the narrow direction that it took in front of the 2nd Circuit.

IMPORTANT CAVEAT: Particularly at the appellate level, judges do not always reveal their real thoughts through questioning. Though sometimes they do.

upstater1 · Mar 3, 2016

Deus Irae said:
No

And you wonder why people ignore you.

Tuck · Mar 3, 2016

Froob said:
I just don't know how anyone can argue against Berman's points. How can you say there was prior notice?

The league argued it wasn't an equipment violation but conduct detrimental to which Kessler argued notice is still required.

Now whether that's air tight, I have no idea. Would love to hear opinions from some of our attorney members on this point.

Todd Bradley · Mar 3, 2016

YOUGOTMOSSED said:
If you want to keep a happy thought, it's 100% true that judges do sometimes give the side they've already decided in favor of an extra hard time during oral argument. I dunno, I guess it's how they get their "judge jollies."

I can just imagine Chin going up to Parker before oral argument and saying "Yo! BDP! Want to see me mess with Kessler and get my name mentioned for weeks on ESPN?!?!?! hehehehe"

It's more a rational thought than anything.

Everyone's saying Kessler got destroyed, yet everything I'm reading regarding the questions asked by the Judges, have nothing to do with Berman's ruling, of which is what actually is being appealed, so it's confusing to say the least.

Deus Irae · Mar 3, 2016

upstater1 said:
And you wonder why people ignore you.

I commented on your post. You went personal. No surprise there, given what you normally do, but the post of yours that I quoted was still not accurate, and all the personal attacks in the world aren't going to change that.

PrairiePat · Mar 3, 2016

I'm disgusted that supposedly reasonable, impartial people couldn't quickly see that (1) the original case was a farce and (2) the process used to 'arbitrate' it was worse.

I'll hope for the best, but every time I get my hopes up in this case I get another dose of reality about how stupid and biased the world is.

blackglass3 · Mar 3, 2016

I have that sinking feeling. Call it knee jerk, call it whatever. I'm mentally preparing myself for Brady to be suspended 4 games or longer. I can totally see Roger saying "for putting us through all of this and not admitting to your crime, I'm doubling your suspension". And according to how these judges acted today, he totally CAN do that.

PatsFanSince74 · Mar 3, 2016

SVN said:
Snapshot of Deflategate Second Circuit Argument - Stradley Law Firm

her first impression is that it doesnt look good for brady

interesting. Ms. Stradley built her reputation last summer by waiting for the facts but if you read this post carefully you see that she is going on reports of reports and not on what was actually said. Time for all of us to take a deep breath, I think.

ausbacker · Mar 3, 2016

So, what are we supposed to do with this then?

VectorPrime · Mar 3, 2016

I just can't get past the whole "evidence is compelling if not overwhelming". It's one thing to defend the NFL on the basis of the CBA and what it may or may not allow Goodell to do. I get that, there's a lot of nuance with it. But FFS, over the last 8 months we have seen article after article and study after study that shows that not only was the Wells Report incredibly flawed in both its methods and assumptions but that its overall conclusion was in fact, more likely than not, incorrect. Where the **** has this judge been that he thinks that the evidence is overwhelming after all of that, ESPECIALLY when in the NFL's own investigative report their conclusion only went as far as saying that Brady was probably generally aware. What the FUUCK

Todd Bradley · Mar 3, 2016

VectorPrime said:
I just can't get past the whole "evidence is compelling if not overwhelming". It's one thing to defend the NFL on the basis of the CBA and what it may or may not allow Goodell to do. I get that, there's a lot of nuance with it. But FFS, over the last 8 months we have seen article after article and study after study that shows that not only was the Wells Report incredibly flawed in both its methods and assumptions but that its overall conclusion was in fact, more likely than not, incorrect. Where the **** has this judge been that he thinks that the evidence is overwhelming after all of that, ESPECIALLY when in the NFL's own investigative report their conclusion only went as far as saying that Brady was probably generally aware. What the FUUCK

Seriously, it's like the guy rolled out of bed today and said, "Hmm, guess I should get ready for that big appeal today..."

I mean there's more evidence that nothing happened, then something (just like every jealousy driven Patriots "scandal", but don't tell the lynch mob that) and he's acting like the Wells Report was just released yesterday.

Very odd stuff indeed.

Gronkowski123 · Mar 3, 2016

blackglass3 said:
I have that sinking feeling. Call it knee jerk, call it whatever. I'm mentally preparing myself for Brady to be suspended 4 games or longer. I can totally see Roger saying "for putting us through all of this and not admitting to your crime, I'm doubling your suspension". And according to how these judges acted today, he totally CAN do that.

im also prepared for the worst offseason.
losing a 1st rounder is horrible now theres a pretty good chance tb12 will be suspended over nothing....

also disappointed in kessler. he got his ass kicked by clement...

VectorPrime · Mar 3, 2016

Todd Bradley said:
Seriously, it's like the guy rolled out of bed today and said, "Hmm, guess I should get ready for that big appeal today..."

I mean there's more evidence that nothing happened, then something (just like every jealousy driven Patriots "scandal", but don't tell the lynch mob that) and he's acting like the Wells Report was just released yesterday.

Very odd stuff indeed.

If he had probed Kessler with something along the lines of "well the balls being deflated does seem a bit suspicious don't you think" then I could kind of understand that. He may very well be skeptical about Brady being totally innocent even with all of the new evidence and stuff. But to outright declare that the evidence is convincing if not overwhelming... my head hurts.

NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

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