NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

102 Pat said:

Thanks folks, much appreciated, I feel like the need to get excited or down is not necessary and that no matter what happens, it will drag on and on. Maybe by Super Bowl 60 (which apparently is a diamond colour and that's nice because I have a Pats hoodie from 2014 that is grey with a nice diamond-ish colour Flying Elvis logo that I really like, but I digress) this will be settled?

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At this rate, I imagine by the time Superbowl 60 rolls around, the human race will have fallen apart under the weight of its own stupidity. What's left of humanity will be ruled by intelligent apes. The good news, the intelligent apes will do a much better job running the NFL than Goodell ever did.

People may be over reacting to Chin. It's not like he was openly biased against Brady's California background and kept shouting, "San Fransisco **** sucker!"

YOUGOTMOSSED said:

Football being a complete farce I can live with. The court system being a complete farce is a little bit harder to accept.

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I know. But its not new. There's injustice and unfairness just all over the place. Politics, the judiciary system, sports. It isn't a very easy pill to swallow.

VectorPrime said:

Then why did one of the judges say that the evidence for deflation was convincing?

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What really gets me about that is that there was a Friend of the Court filing made on this. If Chin really said that, then he clearly didn't read it or he's incompetent. Neither is a trait you want in a federal appeals court judge.

They said it looked good for Brady when Berman was hounding the NFL the first time around

They said it looked really bad for Brady today


Say what you want, I'm not sleeping well tonight.

Who even cares.

Brady appeals again, wins, do this all over again next year.

VectorPrime said:

I haven't felt this bad about football since last June.

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Did you bother to watch the afc championship game.

I see that people are focusing on what Parker said that seemed anti-Brady but he also said

Parker, meanwhile, said that -- while arbitrator decisions are normally deferred to by judges (Berman didn’t) -- “Goodell serves as judge, jury and, well, not executioner but enforcer. That difference makes it fundamentally different and more likely that the arbitrator’s decision needs more scrutiny and must not be deferred to.”

Hammer of Thor said:

What really gets me about that is that there was a Friend of the Court filing made on this. If Chin really said that, then he clearly didn't read it or he's incompetent. Neither is a trait you want in a federal appeals court judge.

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They don't have to, probably didn't, and probably won't read the amicus curiae brief.

upstater1 said:

Im trying to figure out why some of you aren't alarmed at Kessler's quote.

Brady's entire case is that the arbitrator deliberately and with malice disregarded the facts.

If the judges believe that this didn't happen, then Brady loses.

The only reason Berman ruled against the arbitrator's (ahem) discretion is because he believed the arbitrator was biased and was not giving the facts an adequate assessment.

If someone turns around and thinks the facts overwhelmingly show tampering, then you have to defer to the arbitrator.

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No, Brady's argument is that he wasn't given Notice that he could be suspended for deflating footballs (which, I hasten to add given the mood in this thread, I don't believe he did), that he wasn't given the ability to question Pash, who revised the Wells report after it was originally drafted, and that he wasn't given access to other information. That is what Berman found and that is all that matters.

Kessler was, I imagine, making the point that those things occurred because the arbiter acted with deliberate malice. But, it sounds to me like Kessler got suckered into a discussion that was irrelevant to the matter at hand. If you want me to be "alarmed," then I'll say that the bits and pieces of the transcript that have been dribbled and tweeted out suggest that Kessler lost his cool to a Federal Judge, which is a big, "bozo no-no" and does "alarm" me.

This is why Appellate Counsel generally handles Appeals. They stay laser-focused on the issues and have no investment in the noise from the trial or procedure that gave rise to the appeal.

All the rest of this is atmospherics, into which too many folks are reading way too much.

It is indeed possible that two of the three Judges will find that Brady didn't need to be given such notice and that he did not need access to Pash, but they won't be deciding based on the Ideal Gas Law.

YOUGOTMOSSED said:

They don't have to, probably didn't, and probably won't read the amicus curiae brief.

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But their clerks will.

JMC00 said:

I see that people are focusing on what Parker said that seemed anti-Brady but he also said

Parker, meanwhile, said that -- while arbitrator decisions are normally deferred to by judges (Berman didn’t) -- “Goodell serves as judge, jury and, well, not executioner but enforcer. That difference makes it fundamentally different and more likely that the arbitrator’s decision needs more scrutiny and must not be deferred to.”

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Yeah I agree. I don't see where it's 2-1 NFL.

These judges grilled both sides. So what? That doesn't mean squat in terms of whether or not they believe Berman ruled unfairly.

Goodell being judge, jury and executioner is what this appeal is about. Not whether or not Brady destroyed his phone. Sure, one could say that it "raised the stakes" so to speak in terms of Goodell's decision, but that has zero to do with Berman's ruling, which is why I can't get worked up over these questions.

JMC00 said:

Little newsflash for you: Kraft couldn't have done **** to stop what is going on with Brady.. nfl set out to suspend him from the beginning.

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Jonathan????

YOUGOTMOSSED said:

They don't have to, probably didn't, and probably won't read the amicus curiae brief.

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I don't disagree, but in many professions including mine, if you just followed the bare minimum standards you'd be incompetent. There are reasons why the phrase "best practice" evolved, even if it's just used as a corporate buzzword by management in some cases. You can't say something is "compelling if not overwhelming" if a respected subject matter expert puts a piece of paper in front of you explaining why it isn't either. That's just laziness or incompetence, which may be allowable under the law but is very frustrating in general.

PatsFanSince74 said:

No, Brady's argument is that he wasn't given Notice that he could be suspended for deflating footballs (which, I hasten to add given the mood in this thread, I don't believe he did), that he wasn't given the ability to question Pash, who revised the Wells report after it was originally drafted, and that he wasn't given access to other information. That is what Berman found and that is all that matters.

Kessler was, I imagine, making the point that those things occurred because the arbiter acted with deliberate malice. But, it sounds to me like Kessler got suckered into a discussion that was irrelevant to the matter at hand.

All the rest of this is atmospherics, into which too many folks are reading way too much.

It is indeed possible that two of the three Judges will find that Brady didn't need to be given such notice and that he did not need access to Pash, but they won't be deciding based on the Ideal Gas Law.

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Maybe they unanimous affirm Berman's decision. Even so, they knew the press would be all over oral argument, so Chin is a d-bag for that "overwhelming evidence" comment.

PatsFanSince74 said:

But their clerks will.

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Maybe.

PatsFanSince74 said:

That is what Berman found and that is all that matters.

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It's not all that matters.

If it were, the judge's wouldn't have wasted their own time with things that don't matter.

Kessler, though he blew his stack, was smart enough to realize this. He understood that the very BASIS of Berman's decision had been overturned by the judges.

Which is why Kessler blew his stack.

Again, Steph Bradley seems to agree with my reading. She wrote that since judges will presume that any arbitrator's decision is based on the facts at hand (or the lack thereof) the oversight over an arbitrator's responsibilities will naturally also include a sifting through the facts.

YOUGOTMOSSED said:

Maybe they unanimous affirm Berman's decision. Even so, they knew the press would be all over oral argument, so Chin is a d-bag for that "overwhelming evidence" comment.

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He's a federal judge, nominated by the President of the United States and given a lifetime Appointment by the United States Senate. He doesn't give a **** who considers him a d-bag or whatever they consider him.

As far as I'm concerned, he can be the biggest **** on the planet, but he still hasn't said how he's going to rule on the core arguments related to Notice and Pash. For all we know, he was just messing with Clement, the big shot in the room.

festy1986 said:

Who even cares.

Brady appeals again, wins, do this all over again next year.

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Appeals to the Supreme Court? That's the court after this.

You want the Supreme Court to weigh in on deflated footballs?