Any ideas on how to upgrade at TE?

Just pick up one of the Colts TEs, there is almost no chance that they are going to extend both. Allen seems to be the odd one out given his injury concerns, and that is good news for us because:

1. Good blocker
2. Solid hands
3. Red zone threat
4. Relatively cheaper contract (in comparison to other TEs such as Green) because of his injury concerns.
5. Better than Scott Chandler

robertweathers said:

8 freaking drops in 42 targets. Brutal.

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Chandler had no pizazz. He appeared to be playing in slow motion and was overpowered by
smallish defensive backs.

Any ideas how we can upgrade our #2 QB? Jimmy had 0 TDs this year, a major disappointment.

Yeah, Chandler wasn't what we all hoped. Then again, no team has ever really come close to replicating that Gronk/Hernandez combo, including us.

As others mentioned, Chandler was one of the more productive #2 TEs in the league. The teams ahead of him "featured" #1 TEs that were nowhere near as good as Gronk. Baltimore's "#1" was umm...Crockett Gillmore(?!?) with 33 catches, and Maxx Williams finished one catch behind with 32. The Giants had Will Tye with 42 catches and Larry Donnell with 29. The Raiders had Mychal Rivera with 32 catches and Clive Walford with 28. I'm using full names here because I don't recognize any of these guys.

Probably the best TE combination in the league belonged to Philly with Zach Ertz getting 75 catches and Brent Celek hauling in 27. The Chargers had Gates with 56 and Green with 37.

And none of those teams made the playoffs. So I'm really confused why this is such a big deal.

The Broncos got 66 catches combined from their 2 TEs. Carolina lived off their TEs due to the Benjamin injury and the JAGs at WR, and Olsen had 77 catches, but second was Ed ****son with 17. Having a high-quality #2 doesn't really guarantee much of anything.

I'd like to have more depth, yes. I'd like to go 3 or 4 deep at every position with Pro Bowlers if possible. But would I want to focus a ton of resources on our second TE position? No. I'd rather we spend it on a WR or a RB or a quality swing tackle or some cornerback depth or on retaining Hicks or a bunch of other places.

convertedpatsfan said:

As others mentioned, Chandler was one of the more productive #2 TEs in the league. The teams ahead of him "featured" #1 TEs that were nowhere near as good as Gronk. Baltimore's "#1" was umm...Crockett Gillmore(?!?) with 33 catches, and Maxx Williams finished one catch behind with 32. The Giants had Will Tye with 42 catches and Larry Donnell with 29. The Raiders had Mychal Rivera with 32 catches and Clive Walford with 28. I'm using full names here because I don't recognize any of these guys.

Probably the best TE combination in the league belonged to Philly with Zach Ertz getting 75 catches and Brent Celek hauling in 27. The Chargers had Gates with 56 and Green with 37.

And none of those teams made the playoffs. So I'm really confused why this is such a big deal.

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Except none of these teams are similar to us. They have various holes at various positions on both offense and defense. We don't, our defense is very well rounded and don't need anything else other than depth players. Our offense has a lot of problems and if we can upgrade it in anyway possible, we should. WR/RB should be priority but a TE2 is absolutely necessary. We are paying Scott Chandler another $3 million next season to drop passes and be an average blocker, and we save $2 million in cap just by cutting him. We need another TE.

Flash said:

Except none of these teams are similar to us. They have various holes at various positions on both offense and defense. We don't, our defense is very well rounded and don't need anything else other than depth players. Our offense has a lot of problems and if we can upgrade it in anyway possible, we should. WR/RB should be priority but a TE2 is absolutely necessary. We are paying Scott Chandler another $3 million next season to drop passes and be an average blocker, and we save $2 million in cap just by cutting him. We need another TE.

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I think you should look up what the word "need" means.

We were the #4 offense in points scored in 2014 and won a Super Bowl with Tim Wright as our #2 TE. He caught 26 receptions for 259 yards. He did have 6 TDs and I know in the fantasy football era, we are obsessed with TDs, but that had a lot more to do with the others around him than anything Wright was doing.

Our offense finished #3 in points this season with Chandler and his 23 receptions 259 yards and 4 TDs. Are you really telling me a difference of 3 catches is a need? Was it the difference between winning a Super Bowl and not? Or was that more about missing our top 2 running backs, our starting LT and both starting guards from last year's Super Bowl winning OL, a hobbled WR corps with LaFell and Jules both fighting injuries...and you're really going to tell me Scott Chandler's 3 missing receptions are a "need?"

The #2 TE on this team will probably be 5th or 6th option in the passing game if everyone is healthy. Jules and Gronk will lead the way, Dola had a huge year for us this year while LaFell had a big year in 2014 so potentially both #2 and #3 WRs could potentially get more looks than the #2 TE. But kick one of them out of the list, I don't care. Lewis has proven he deserves touches in the passing game as well. That puts the #2 TE at no greater than 5th, possibly 6th.

The Broncos won the Super Bowl without a big season from their #2 TE, and Kubiak is a firm proponent of a 2-TE offense. But that 2nd TE (Vernon Davis) didn't need to catch 40 passes, and in fact didn't top Chandler in catches, yards, or TDs. Ed ****son caught 17 passes for 121 yards and 2 TDs as the #2 TE for the 15-1 Panthers who opposed the Broncos. In 2013, the Seahawks had Luke Willson as their #2 TE, and he caught 20 passes for 272 yards and 1 TD. Those 2013 Broncos had a dangerous Julius Thomas as their #1 TE, but only got 20 catches for 184 yards and 1 TD out of their #2, Tamme.

So when you say we "need" one, that's wrong. Teams win all the time without a lot of production from their #2 TE. It's a want, and a luxury to have one. But it's not a "need."

convertedpatsfan said:

I think you should look up what the word "need" means.
So when you say we "need" one, that's wrong. Teams win all the time without a lot of production from their #2 TE. It's a want, and a luxury to have one. But it's not a "need."

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There is pretty much a weak TE Draft class. Don't see help there. We have a need at TE and WR as well. I think I have suggested this a few times but I will articulate. We know Williams is more of a third OT. Hopefully he will blossom this year. Even a dozen catches would keep the Defenses honest.

If we had more help at OT. Perhaps an athletic OT you could make Williams at least have a thought to be covered. It would help in the run game as well. Now we don't have to positively have a run block first TE.

I would love to see OT Kelvin Beachum from the Steelers. Might be reasonable with an ACL recovery. He might be Volmer's replacement. Now we don't have to have a stay on line TE.

The AH seasons with Gronk were dynamic. My theory is Coby Fleener. 6'6" 251lbs and 4,54 speed. 50 Catches last there years and the Colts did not feature the TE. Use him as the AH TE. Take James White and make him a WR. Have him learn the route tree in preseason. TB trusts him. WR and TE resolved.

Get Forte who could easily catch 100 from TB. He can still get yards and if Lewis comes back healthy we are set at RB. It frees up a roster spot if James White can back up both RBs.

Spend the money that a WR would cost on Fleener. After Jeffrey, they are either too old or will get overpaid. Fleener up the seam deep with Gronk would be formidable. You have Edelman, White and Danny (maybe) underneath. This is how you stop the Broncos D as well.

Both Safeties can't cheat. Gronk or Fleener should draw double Teams.

You add that one quickest O Lineman like Beachum versus the slow footed Volmer (certainly seek better than Cannon or Flemming). You pick up Jahari Evans as help inside. He has at least two more years in him while Mason and Jackson rotate with him and grow.

Now you don't have to keep Gronk in. He and Fleener can actually be your deep threats (relatively for TB) and you have the little guys running underneath with single coverage......and Forte leading the Team in catches.

TE and WR at the same time solved. Helps the O Line and Forte might still reach 1,000 yards plus 100 catches.

Cost too much?

My guess on cost.
Fleener=$6m
Forte=$3m
Beechum=$6.m
Evans=$4m

$19 spent (cut Mayo, Amendola [resign], LaFell, Cannon, Chandler gives you that much) The rise in 2016 CAP and the 2015 $ leftover could be used to resign Hightower, Collins,extend Jones and fast track Butler with a signup now rather than later.

Moves like Kline, Jones ,Freeney, Dobson, Branch and Bostic cuts, you could resign Hicks, get a top tier speed LB who can cover like Zach Brown (maybe your Von Miller SPEED pass rush guy) who has diversity to play ILB or OLB and sign my "binkie" SS Eric Weddle on the D. Now I see Chung as a OLB. He has played that this year.

Now Draft for depth over need. WR, CB, OT, RB, TE

DW Toys

convertedpatsfan said:

Any ideas how we can upgrade our #2 QB? Jimmy had 0 TDs this year, a major disappointment.

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Ridiculous comparison, and Chandler sucked

Hope the Pats pass on Vernon Davis. Broncos didn't use him because he struggled to learn the system and gain the trust of Manning. Solid route running and precise timing is as much of a requirement for Brady as it is for Manning.

Aparantly he looked good playing with Brock Osweiler though.

convertedpatsfan said:

So when you say we "need" one, that's wrong. Teams win all the time without a lot of production from their #2 TE. It's a want, and a luxury to have one. But it's not a "need."

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It's a need because you are completely ignoring the fact that any of those players who got hurt last season could get hurt again. Edelman, Gronk, Amendola, LaFell, all it takes is one random hit and some of them could be gone for a few weeks. Any decent depth player is always a need because you will never get a team fully healthy into the Super Bowl. Like I said before and I will say it again, it's also a need because Scott Chandler is being paid $3 million to drop passes and be an average blocker, and we save $2 million in cap space just by cutting him. There is literally no justification to keep him on the team when his production doesn't even come close to match his contract, which is why a TE2 is necessary.

Deus Irae said:

Ridiculous comparison, and Chandler sucked

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Sure it's ridiculous. So is a post claiming we "need" a #2 TE.

Yes, Chandler sucked. So did 99% of the #2 TEs in the league. So did a lot of the #1 TEs too. Only 30 teams even had 1 TE who caught more than 2 balls a game.

Flash said:

It's a need because you are completely ignoring the fact that any of those players who got hurt last season could get hurt again. Edelman, Gronk, Amendola, LaFell, all it takes is one random hit and some of them could be gone for a few weeks. Any decent depth player is always a need because you will never get a team fully healthy into the Super Bowl. Like I said before and I will say it again, it's also a need because Scott Chandler is being paid $3 million to drop passes and be an average blocker, and we save $2 million in cap space just by cutting him. There is literally no justification to keep him on the team when his production doesn't even come close to match his contract, which is why a TE2 is necessary.

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I'm not advocating for keeping Chandler. I'm just saying the priority of finding more production out of our TE#2 isn't as high of a priority for me.

Let's be honest, you are probably not finding anyone close to Gronk for your #2 TE. Can you find someone better than Chandler for that $2M-$3M though? More than likely, you'll have to spend much more for a Fleener or Allen.

And if we're spending that type of money on a #2 TE, would you rather spend it on someone like Forte? Or a better swing tackle than Cannon? Perhaps put that money towards an Evans or another guard to protect Brady? An outside WR?

Or is TE #2 THE priority over all of those? To me, it's not.

convertedpatsfan said:

Sure it's ridiculous. So is a post claiming we "need" a #2 TE.

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I'm not sure what's clouded your memory of how BB likes his offense to function, but this team needs a TE2.

Since we aren't going to pay Chandler $2M, we certainly need a 2nd TE.

Are there folks who want to keep Chandler at $2M?

Deus Irae said:

I'm not sure what's clouded your memory of how BB likes his offense to function, but this team needs a TE2.

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And the team has always had a TE2. It's not like we only carry one TE. But the effectiveness of that second TE, how good they have to be, that's what we're debating. And as bad as we think Chandler was, he was one of the better #2 options out there. Heck, he'd probably start for at least 5 or 6 teams in this league.

As for whether we need a higher-quality TE2, we've won 4 Super Bowls, and in those years, the most catches we got from our #2 TE was Fauria with 28 catches in 2003. Whether BB likes his offense to have a great second TE or not, he's found more than enough ways to be effective with and without one. We've been in the top 5 in points scored the past 5 seasons, 3 with the 2-TE formation, 2 without.

The Gronk/Hernandez combination was deadly (and as it turns out, that's the perfect word), but Hernandez was never the ideal BB TE. He was a mediocre blocker, although provided some versatility coming out of the backfield.

I hope we do get a kid who emerges and becomes an awesome second tight end. I'm not against playing in 2-TE sets more. But if it doesn't happen, I'm not going to give up before the season begins. We've won without a quality player there before, we can win again.

I'm not shutting the book on Chandler, just like I didn't with Amendola. Some people take longer than others to find their place in this offense. It's not a given that he can succeed here, but one injury-filled year isn't enough, imo. Just like it wasn't with Amendola.

convertedpatsfan said:

And the team has always had a TE2. It's not like we only carry one TE. But the effectiveness of that second TE, how good they have to be, that's what we're debating. And as bad as we think Chandler was, he was one of the better #2 options out there. Heck, he'd probably start for at least 5 or 6 teams in this league.

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This is where we fundamentally disagree. I think Chandler has been awful and quite frankly needs to be cut unless he takes a drastic paycut which really is unlikely to happen, and as a result of being cut is where we need a new TE2. Chandler simply sin't worth $3 million cap hit and it really wouldn't make sense not to cut him since cutting him saves us $2 million in cap. Not to mention he's already 30, he's not going to improve anymore. Dwayne Allen wouldn't be too expensive to get, somewhere around $2.5 to $3.5 million AAV and that wouldn't be a bad contract at all.

fnordcircle said:

I'm not shutting the book on Chandler, just like I didn't with Amendola. Some people take longer than others to find their place in this offense. It's not a given that he can succeed here, but one injury-filled year isn't enough, imo. Just like it wasn't with Amendola.

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There are two major problems with Chandler:

1. He's an average blocker.
2. His hands are terrible.

If his main problem was getting down the playbook then fine, I would have had more hope for Chandler in the future. These two things have been with him since his days in Buffalo and aren't something that a 30 years old can easily improve on, he has likely hit his ceiling and really won't get any better from this point on.

noooo not Watson! I cannot stand the thought of him back here again. He couldn't catch a cold when he was here. I just can't give him the chance to disappoint us again. and no Davis either. ..

Armchair Quarterback said:

Dwayne Allen. Heck of a good TE when healthy, solid blocker and pass catcher but is injury prone, which could keep his price down. Maybe offer a 3 year $8 million contract. Team him up with Gronk and they'd dominate.

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Flash said:

Just pick up one of the Colts TEs, there is almost no chance that they are going to extend both. Allen seems to be the odd one out given his injury concerns, and that is good news for us because:

1. Good blocker
2. Solid hands
3. Red zone threat
4. Relatively cheaper contract (in comparison to other TEs such as Green) because of his injury concerns.
5. Better than Scott Chandler

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Agree on the Dwayne Allen suggestion. Been talking about it with Grid on the two TE thread. Think he'd be a great fit here. He's not as lethal as Hernandez was in the passing game but he's still pretty good, and he's a better blocker than Hernandez was.

convertedpatsfan said:

And the team has always had a TE2. It's not like we only carry one TE. But the effectiveness of that second TE, how good they have to be, that's what we're debating. And as bad as we think Chandler was, he was one of the better #2 options out there. Heck, he'd probably start for at least 5 or 6 teams in this league.

As for whether we need a higher-quality TE2, we've won 4 Super Bowls, and in those years, the most catches we got from our #2 TE was Fauria with 28 catches in 2003. Whether BB likes his offense to have a great second TE or not, he's found more than enough ways to be effective with and without one. We've been in the top 5 in points scored the past 5 seasons, 3 with the 2-TE formation, 2 without.

The Gronk/Hernandez combination was deadly (and as it turns out, that's the perfect word), but Hernandez was never the ideal BB TE. He was a mediocre blocker, although provided some versatility coming out of the backfield.

I hope we do get a kid who emerges and becomes an awesome second tight end. I'm not against playing in 2-TE sets more. But if it doesn't happen, I'm not going to give up before the season begins. We've won without a quality player there before, we can win again.

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Good read here from Bedard a few years ago. Touches on the strategy to get away from shotgun spread and focus more on two TE sets to improve running game and play action passing.

Also explains the classification system of the Patriots for TE:

The Patriots have always had two classes of tight ends. There is the traditional “Y,” whose job requirements read: 6 feet 5 inches or taller, at least 255 pounds, can run but absolutely must be a standout blocker. He has to be a viable receiver, but not a great one.

The “F” or flex tight end is 6-3 or taller, around 235 pounds, must be able to run and be an excellent pass receiver. Does not need to be a good blocker.

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Rise of tight ends came as a result of 2009 - The Boston Globe

Guys like Gronk and Graham would be the Y tight ends, guys like Hernandez and Watson would be the F type.

The Chandler we saw this year on the field was not the same Chandler who played in Buffalo previously, gotta believe that he had some sort of injury which impeded his ability to be more of an offensive force..

We might already have the answer..

I think James Develin could be an option at TE. Patriots missed his toughness in the run game and pass blocking.