Unofficial "Sure, why the hell not?" fix to the offense

PF_SU · Feb 13, 2016

supafly said:
We recently saw both Tully Banta-Cain and Mark Anderson reach 10+ sacks in seasons here, yet still moved on from them. The fact that old ass Andre Carter did it as well probably goes against your point. The fact is that other DEs have been able to rush the passer with success on much cheaper pacts.

Is Jones a dominant DE? No he isn't. But he is a guy who is a near-lock to get 10 sacks a season if he stays healthy. He's gotten 36 sacks in 55 games here (0.65 a game, which equals to 10.5 sacks over 16 games). Mark Anderson had 36.5 sacks in 98 games (0.37 a game or 6 over 16 games) and Banta-Cain 27.5 in 113 career games (0.24 a game, 4 sacks over a full season). Banta-Cain and Anderson's production came out of nowhere and I think the coaching staff knew perfectly well that they couldn't count on them replicating this production. And that's they point here, with Jones you know what you have, with pick-ups like Anderson or Banta-Cain it's like rolling the lottery.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to a Jones trade, it depends on what we get out of it. However, I think people are a bit too loose in thinking that we could plug any DE in there and it won't really affect the defense just because Jones is not a dominant player. It's not only about what Jones will bring, it's also about the ripple effect of pushing players who can't play big number of snaps into roles that are too big for them. I think the DE position is in a very good balance right now and am hesistant to break this balance without seeing a suggestion of how to maintain a similar balance first. As I said earlier, in case of a Jones trade we'd need to get another DE with starter potential.

FreeTedWilliams · Feb 13, 2016

I fail to understand why a lot of people here want to trade Chandler Jones. the guy makes big play after big play. He also finished the year with a severe rib/abdominal injury. Anyone who has every broke a rib or had their abdomen cut open can attest that it hurts to breathe, let alone play football.

I realize that the Pat's have 4 young defensive players (jones, Hightower, Collins, and Butler) all due new contracts, hopefully they can find a way to pay them all, maybe use the Broncos system.

The Pat's clearly need a RB, I'm not sold on a 30 year old Forte. There is a lot of wear on those tires.

Deus Irae · Feb 13, 2016

FreeTedWilliams said:
I fail to understand why a lot of people here want to trade Chandler Jones. the guy makes big play after big play. He also finished the year with a severe rib/abdominal injury. Anyone who has every broke a rib or had their abdomen cut open can attest that it hurts to breathe, let alone play football.

I realize that the Pat's have 4 young defensive players (jones, Hightower, Collins, and Butler) all due new contracts, hopefully they can find a way to pay them all, maybe use the Broncos system.

The Pat's clearly need a RB, I'm not sold on a 30 year old Forte. There is a lot of wear on those tires.

People want to trade Jones because:

Big money deal coming
He's #3 on the three man priority list, behind Hightower and Collins
Sheard impressed last year
They like the return they think he'd bring

I'm not in that camp, but I understand the thinking.

50-yard-line · Feb 13, 2016

It'd be amazing to get a Josh Gordon talent who could get under control, I agree.

In the meantime, Sanu is a guy I'd love to have. I've liked him a lot since he came into the league. And I wouldn't mind Cotchery as a chains-moving 4th WR, either.

Ivan · Feb 13, 2016

manxman2601 said:
I'm not convinced it weakens the team that much. No Chandler Jones just means Sheard sees more snaps and I think he's the better player anyway. Of course, much will depend on what you think of Flowers as adequate cover. As for the compensatory pick, by trading him for what I suggested, you lose a round in value in 2017 (3rd - 4th) but gain a 2nd this year. Anyway, it's nothing more than some fun conjecture.

One thing I'm not clear on which hopefully people can help with. If we trade Chandler Jones does his salary come off the books? Salary cap implications are a dark art for me.

We disagree. I think Jones is a really good player and he is really unappreciated in this forum. And the argument that Sheard will replace him makes no sense as they already have Sheard and if "Sheard replaces him" then Sheard has to be replaced, and Flowers is completely unproven. Losing Jones is losing all of his production, period, and that's downgrading their defense going into a season where they could have the best defense they have had since 2003-2004. I want them to build on what they have not pay it forward in hopes they will get a return from unproven players. Sign their defenders and upgrade the offense. The Patriots can "go for it" without breaking the bank and while keeping the core intact for the future and that's what I want from them. If they can't get Jones done next season they get a 3rd instead of a 2nd and I will take that over not having him every time.

captain stone · Feb 13, 2016

Cotchery's interesting in that he has been a free agent more than a couple of times during his career,
but Bill has never persued him even though I've always thought that he could help here.

If it's not Cotchery, then it needs to be somebody else because Brady is in desperate need of another
WR who can force the opponent to defend different parts of the field than it has been used to defending
against this offense.
The Move TE position also has a vacancy…
…as does the Between-the-Tackles RB position…
…and the 3rd-Down RB position; Dion Lewis will likely be PUPed to start the season, so a backup to
White capable of similar production until Lewis returns also has an opening.

Of course, all the improvement to the "skill position" depth will be moot unless and until the talent base
on the OL has been improved, including at Swing Tackle & LG.

FreeTedWilliams · Feb 14, 2016

I think that people are discounting the toll all the injuries took on the Pat's offense last year. Specifically how role players were forced to abandon their roles and into the starting lineup. Fleming is great as a third tackle, coming in on "heavy sets" to act as a TE and block. As a starting tackle, he is awful (plus the Pat's no longer have the option of brining him in as TE). The same goes for Willaims and Cannon. The rash of injuries forced these role players into the starting line up and they had to abandon the plays that these role players would normally be in for and severely limited the offense.

The Lewis injury really hurt, he was amazing out of the backfield and would have eaten the Bronocs for lunch. Without him, the Broncos were able to triple team Gronk. Edelman couldn't be replaced. Again, Amendola,is great as the third/fourth option, but doesn't cut it as the #1 WR.

The only glaring need I see is RB. Maybe the Pat's can strike gold in the draft, I'm not convinced a 30 year old Forte is the answer.

AvocadoIceCream · Feb 14, 2016

Can't keep jones, Collins, Hightower and butler.

Jones is the obvious man out

goheels22002 · Feb 14, 2016

JMC00 said:
Cut LaFell
Cut Cannon
Cut Amendola
Cut S.Chandler
Extend Brady (lowering '16 and '17 hit)
Retain Waddle (RFA) to be the #3 T
Sign Matt Forte
Sign Anquan Boldin
Trade Chandler Jones to Detroit for the #46 pick
Trade Jimmy G to Houston for the the #52 pick
Trade #46 and #92 to San Fran for #37
Draft Braxton Miller, WR with #37
Draft Best Available OT with #52 ('17 Vollmer replacement)
Draft Connor Cook, QB with #60
(3rd round comp pick spent on a LB)
Draft Jerell Adams, TE with 4th round pick
(Post draft) Trade for Josh Gordon ('17 3rd round pick that could become a 2nd and 4th)

WR- J.Edelman, J.Gordon, A.Boldin, K.Martin, B.Miller
RB- M.Forte, D.Lewis, J.White, B.Bolden
TE-. R.Gronk, A.Derby, M. Williams, J.Adams

I disagree on letting go of Amendola and Garoppolo. Amendola is a core kick/punt return man, and we've seen what can happen when things get shaky back there. He's fine as the number #2 slot receiver and #4 overall receiver.

I think Garoppolo has the ability, quick release, and smarts to be a starter in the NFL. For my money, he's the best back up in the Brady era. We'll never truly know until he's a starter, but his physical skills are more impressive to me than Matt Cassell and Brian Hoyer. Trading Garoppolo, the Patriots only veteran backup who knows the playbook, for a 2nd rounder seems foolish right now.

Ross12 · Feb 14, 2016

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Gresham as the #2 TE. He's not flashy but he's a good blocker, his hands are okay, he's tall and he's durable. That checks pretty much all the boxes for the #2 TE, and a depth chart of Gronk, Gresham, Williams with Derby as the young project makes me happy.

captain stone · Feb 14, 2016

FreeTedWilliams said:
I think that people are discounting the toll all the injuries took on the Pat's offense last year. Specifically how role players were forced to abandon their roles and into the starting lineup. Fleming is great as a third tackle, coming in on "heavy sets" to act as a TE and block. As a starting tackle, he is awful (plus the Pat's no longer have the option of brining him in as TE). The same goes for Willaims and Cannon. The rash of injuries forced these role players into the starting line up and they had to abandon the plays that these role players would normally be in for and severely limited the offense...

Injuries happen every season, including to the OL. Not having talented players available when the
inevitable happens is foolhardy.
We need a starting-caliber LT and LG. What we do NOT need is ANY of Cannonfodder, Kline and
Fleming on the Opening Day 53.

supafly · Feb 15, 2016

captain stone said:
Injuries happen every season, including to the OL. Not having talented players available when the
inevitable happens is foolhardy.
We need a starting-caliber LT and LG. What we do NOT need is ANY of Cannonfodder, Kline and
Fleming on the Opening Day 53.

We have a difference of opinion re: Kline as a backup/rotational IOL--mostly because he can play all 3 positions if needed, and looked adequate prior to his injury (not to mention the trickle down effect that came from all of the injuries).

Other than that 1 player, I agree with you 100 percent on replacing both Cannon/Fleming.

borg · Feb 15, 2016

Excluding Lewis's early season exploits (just because he was NE's 3 down back doesn't mean he should be NE's 3 down back....too tiny to take 3 down punishment).....NE needs a lead back that can at least pose the threat of catching the ball. Too often, the NE RB dictates the play and defenses catch on. For this reason, Forte is the most intriguing....but given his age/injury history, he can't be relied on to be NE's 16 week starter......but he would be a desirable PIECE and a massive upgrade in talent over the Bolden/White/Jackson/Blount pieces that consume roster space but not yards. Despite Forte's claim of seeking a ring at this stage of his career, I doubt he'll want to be paid as just a "piece".

At WR......anyone that can run fast down the sideline. So tired watching White/Bolden as NE's deep threat
OL.......I have zero faith in the interior OL drafted in the past two years and this grouping is reminiscent of BB's failures at bulk drafting WR a few years ago. NE needs to go FA for at least one quality G that doesn't scream "project" .......PS.......set Cannon free.....for my health.

PS...I can't begin to describe my mindset regarding the lost #1 draft pick....aka...a sure fire starter. This is a major problem for NE that will effect the team for years.

Gronk · Feb 15, 2016

borg said:
Forte is the most intriguing....but given his age/injury history,

Age is a debatable point. "Injury history" keeps popping up...he missed 8 games in 8 years. Played 120/128. That's light years beyond anyone who's played RB in New England like, ever. While for the past 8 seasons Pats' backs routinely miss entire chunks of seasons and the team eventually digs up the corpse of Steven Jackson to run into the line for what appears to just be ****s and giggles, Matt Forte has been the most durable and consistent back in the league. Who would want that?

Ivan · Feb 15, 2016

AvocadoIceCream said:
Can't keep jones, Collins, Hightower and butler.

Jones is the obvious man out

Says who? The cap is going to go up substantially and they are in good cap shape now.

borg · Feb 16, 2016

Gronk said:
Age is a debatable point. "Injury history" keeps popping up...he missed 8 games in 8 years. Played 120/128. That's light years beyond anyone who's played RB in New England like, ever. While for the past 8 seasons Pats' backs routinely miss entire chunks of seasons and the team eventually digs up the corpse of Steven Jackson to run into the line for what appears to just be ****s and giggles, Matt Forte has been the most durable and consistent back in the league. Who would want that?

Despite reaching the age most RBs fall off cliffs, Forte has the combination of skills no NE feature back has had in the BB era......he can catch the ball. Too often, NE sends in their slow load....aka...Jackson, Blount, Sammy Morris etc......and the NE strategy is printed on the scoreboard for defenses to read. Have a decent O Line and this type of back can be successful. But if the 2015 version reemerges, NE needs a back that has some wiggle, more speed than the recent loads, veteran guile who knows how to read blocks....and pass catching skills on 1st and 2nd down. Forte is perfect.....in fact...I can't think of many backs more perfect for NE needs (at least what I think NE needs). Give him two years....spend a little more money than has been allotted to this grouping in recent years....and draft a bruiser as well. Enough of the Bolden types that BB is afraid to give more responsibility too

Bourne Again Christian · Feb 16, 2016

Ok here we go hypthetical situation.
Trade Chandler Jones for a 3rd round pick and Josh Gordon.
Release Brandon Lafell
Release Brandon Gibson
Release Marcus Cannon
Sign Marvin Jones
Restructure or release Danny A
Release Tarell Brown
Release Jerod Mayo
Restructure Or release Scott Chandler
Rework Bradys contract
Extend Butler
Extend Collins
Extend Hightower
Extend Ryan
Sign Forte
Andserson or Ivory.
Sign Kelvin Beachum

Just some thoughts its a good starting place.

Hammer of Thor · Feb 16, 2016

Ivan said:
Says who? The cap is going to go up substantially and they are in good cap shape now.

Increases in the salary cap do two things: 1) it has an inflationary impact on the contracts of free agents and free agents-to-be, and 2) less financially disciplined teams will be more likely to continue paying a bad contract instead of cutting a player.

Essentially, a 5 year 45m contract may be the market for Hightower today, but next year it may be 5 year 50m because of increases in the cap. Obviously the solution is to sign them early, but the team is taking on risk in doing so. It's a tough balance.

PATS68 · Feb 16, 2016

PF_SU said:
Is Jones a dominant DE? No he isn't. But he is a guy who is a near-lock to get 10 sacks a season if he stays healthy. He's gotten 36 sacks in 55 games here (0.65 a game, which equals to 10.5 sacks over 16 games). Mark Anderson had 36.5 sacks in 98 games (0.37 a game or 6 over 16 games) and Banta-Cain 27.5 in 113 career games (0.24 a game, 4 sacks over a full season). Banta-Cain and Anderson's production came out of nowhere and I think the coaching staff knew perfectly well that they couldn't count on them replicating this production. And that's they point here, with Jones you know what you have, with pick-ups like Anderson or Banta-Cain it's like rolling the lottery.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to a Jones trade, it depends on what we get out of it. However, I think people are a bit too loose in thinking that we could plug any DE in there and it won't really affect the defense just because Jones is not a dominant player. It's not only about what Jones will bring, it's also about the ripple effect of pushing players who can't play big number of snaps into roles that are too big for them. I think the DE position is in a very good balance right now and am hesistant to break this balance without seeing a suggestion of how to maintain a similar balance first. As I said earlier, in case of a Jones trade we'd need to get another DE with starter potential.

Your argument comes up short and I call it the Barry Sanders argument. Yeah Sanders rushed for 2000 yards, but did nothing when it counted. Jones sacks typically come in the first half of the season against weaker competition and he is no where to be found in the 2nd half of the season. Also Jones is a limited player IE when they went to a 3-4 vs the phins 2 years ago and he got run over and they had to go away from the 3-4.

This team is built for the playoffs and he doesn't show up when its money time. You can toss in your Barry Sanders stats at me, but doesn't change the fact when there is stiffer comp. he is a no show.

A clue would be they drafted players to fill the void IE Flowers and Grissom and I didn't see them draft any LB's to replace Collins or Hightower.

Two playoffs games vs Denver and I didn't hear his name once. 1st Denver game he was going up against a back-up LT and he got shut out.

PF_SU · Feb 16, 2016

PATS68 said:
Also Jones is a limited player IE when they went to a 3-4 vs the phins 2 years ago and he got run over and they had to go away from the 3-4.

They had a few sub-packages this year that involved the 3-4 and Jones played in them as DE. As an example, see this breakdown of the defensive alignment against the Cowboys:

Breaking Down the Pats D Front against Dallas | New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

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