The big offseason question: How do we solve the Denver defense?

IllegalContact said:

I disagree........the Pats did not have the same issue with this defense in the prior year.......yeah yeah, wade philips blah blah blah..........an OL that was not in shambles would have provided an easy victory for the pats even in denver

basically denver got away with 2 straight games of jail break defense........I'd love to see them try to do that all year long.........

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Different offensive line as Wendell and Connelly were at guard. The biggest difference for Denver this year was that Demarcus ware was healthy and able to go low around his blockers.

A capable RB and a legit X Wide Out.

We had it solved in the first game. That muffed punt doesn't happen, game over. And that "D" would have been neutralized had the AFCCG been played in NE!!!! Denver won the Superbowl the day the Pats played the Phins and decided to become a running team!!! Carolina LOST the SB for the same reason.....they tried to run up the middle after it was clear they could not!!!!!

I would also wager that Denver doesnt get so lucky this year with injuries. I mean they effectively had their entire starting D and O healthy for the superbowl....

FourierSeries said:

All of which were decimated by injuries on the offensive side of the ball.

PIT: missing Antonio Brown and their top 2 RBs
NE: missing two starting offensive linemen, top 2 RBs, and Edelman playing at far less than 50%
CAR: losing 2 offensive linemen during the game, and their starting RB suffering an injury early in the game

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How do you know what percentage Edelman was playing at? "Far less than 50 percent," LOL? He looked pretty good hauling in double digit catches and 100+ yards the week before in the KC game. It didn't have anything to do with Julian Edelman. It was the lack of an outside receiver (like LaFell in the previous year), the lack of a running game, and the lack of OL protection....which looked completely fine the week before vs. the tough defensive front of KC.

Why not just admit that your completely over the top homeristic view of how badly we'd "completely pummel" the Broncos was off, not once, not twice, but three times in the past four meetings? Give Denver some credit. They beat 3 top QBs and 3 top offenses in their postseason run by applying pressure and covering well. They had the top defense all year long starting at week one.

Implement an NFL salary cap.

FourierSeries said:

CAR: losing 2 offensive linemen during the game, and their starting RB suffering an injury early in the game

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Not to mention their #2 receiver being intentionally concussed early in the game.

supafly said:

How do you know what percentage Edelman was playing at? "Far less than 50 percent," LOL? He looked pretty good hauling in double digit catches and 100+ yards the week before in the KC game. It didn't have anything to do with Julian Edelman. It was the lack of an outside receiver (like LaFell in the previous year), the lack of a running game, and the lack of OL protection....which looked completely fine the week before vs. the tough defensive front of KC.

Why not just admit that your completely over the top homeristic view of how badly we'd "completely pummel" the Broncos was off, not once, not twice, but three times in the past four meetings? Give Denver some credit. They beat 3 top QBs and 3 top offenses in their postseason run by applying pressure and covering well. They had the top defense all year long starting at week one.

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I meant far less than 100%. I base it on the fact that he required an x-ray after the KC game and the fact that he was seen hobbling in the dressing room after the Denver game. It doesn't take a genius to deduce that he was playing through excruciating pain and that he wasn't able to do the things he normally can. Of course the OL's failures played the biggest role in the loss, but a healthier Edelman could have given Brady the quick/short option that has bailed this team out in the past when the OL had protection issues.

I was wrong about the fact that we would dominate them. I never imagined such a massive failure from the OL. Despite that, though, the game was very winnable had Gost made that XP. The better team did not win that day.

FourierSeries said:

I meant far less than 100%. I base it on the fact that he required an x-ray after the KC game and the fact that he was seen hobbling in the dressing room after the Denver game. It doesn't take a genius to deduce that he was playing through excruciating pain and that he wasn't able to do the things he normally can. Of course the OL's failures played the biggest role in the loss, but a healthier Edelman could have given Brady the quick/short option that has bailed this team out in the past when the OL had protection issues.

I was wrong about the fact that we would dominate them. I never imagined such a massive failure from the OL. Despite that, though, the game was very winnable had Gost made that XP. The better team did not win that day.

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Fair enough. Your response is certainly reasonable. I'm just trying to get away from the excuse making, that's all, particularly when you've been so insanely confident every single time that we play Denver.

As noted before, your optimism is admirable, even if I think you've been a bit over the top. I just have a hard time quantifying the level that Edelman was playing at. We both know that it wasn't 100 percent, but I don't know that I'd say clearly less than 50 percent. Just a difference of opinion.

Until proven otherwise, as long as the pats play in denver with a throw all day offense, the Broncos defense is always going to have the advantage. To reverse the trend, this team will need to go back to running the ball. Maybe then Brady will actually complete over 60% percent of his passes in denver.

Dante Scharneccia is back....problem solved

Fore2213 said:

We had it solved in the first game. That muffed punt doesn't happen, game over. And that "D" would have been neutralized had the AFCCG been played in NE!!!! Denver won the Superbowl the day the Pats played the Phins and decided to become a running team!!! Carolina LOST the SB for the same reason.....they tried to run up the middle after it was clear they could not!!!!!

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Not really. Aside from the first drive we struggled to move the ball all game long(the second touchdown was off a turnover in Broncos territory). The 3rd down offense was pathetic

Get an extra TE( Funchess was doing a great job against Roby), one WR, One vet Oline and we destroy them

A man named Brady said:

Not really. Aside from the first drive we struggled to move the ball all game long(the second touchdown was off a turnover in Broncos territory). The 3rd down offense was pathetic

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No Edelman, no Amendola, no Lewis.

I dunno, but maybe having one of those three guys available might have made a wee bit of difference in the first Denver game and against the JEST.

Sciz said:

Get remotely capable pass protection and don't turn the ball over. One fewer turnover in each game and they win both. Allow 10 QB hits instead of 20 in the playoff game and they win. It's not like they need a superhuman effort. They just need to limit themselves to an average amount of mistakes as opposed to far more.

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Honestly, it has been stated by annalists smarter than DW , that the talent level on our O Line is mediocre at best. I bet Von Miller beats most third string tackles but our depth was a huge step downward. We thought it was good but not so much. Yes injuries are devastating to continuity but nothing beats talent. I am in favor of young guys but that has to be tempered.

The Draft is still a fairly weak point on this Team. All the homers disagree but it is fact. He does fairly well with Round one, but any of us could do that. The scouting department loses focus after Round one and their is a crap shoot after that. Well we have no first rounder so that is that.

See if you can follow me here:
The Scouting department (notice I don't say BB) uses a formula in their Draft Board evaluations that are head scratchers. They can be as egotistical as they want and say "he is the guy we want regardless" (see Tavon Wilson and Jordan Richards Drafted four or five rounds too high), but the Draft Boards on the other 31 Teams put the value of the picks at odds with our board. Thus much more talented players slip through the cracks because we are stubborn.

Malik Jackson, Josh Norman, T.Y Hilton are pretty good right? And oh yeah we need a good WR and both FAs Marvin Jones and Sanu were taken after Wilson. O-Line? There are four or five or more good NFL starters after the 16th pick of the second round where we picked Mr. Wilson.

I can't blame all of this on who we picked and where. My point is we need more talent and let the kids get reps like Mason and Jackson but let them grow. It's obvious that Kline, Cannon (although I was really pulling for him) and Flemming are not NFL talented starters and questionable back ups.

BB does much better in Trades and FA for collecting talent that contributes. Look at our SB roster.

WE NEED TALENT:
I have no idea if they are in contact with CAP cut (and nagging injury) G Jahari Evans who still has a couple good years. Surely better than Kline or even Wendell.

Versatility?
Shaq Mason can play Center. Could Stork or Andrews get us a decent Draft pick? If you add Kline we have four Centers.
P.S. Saw a game with Stork at OT. I did not think he was bad.

FA pick ups:
Kelvin Beachum of the Steelers was an athletic OLT until and early season ACL. That should keep his ask down. He is a talent and could start at LT and move Solder to RT. A good three OT rotation. But Volmer's health is breaking down. OT Waddle might be a find when healthy. Scar could help this kid.

Give me health, veteran Jahari Evans and future stud Beachum and one high end O-Line Draft pick and that is a fix for the Broncos IMO.
DW Toys

DW Toys said:

He does fairly well with Round one, but any of us could do that.

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This is just staggeringly untrue, considering that most NFL teams don't draft nearly as well as the Patriots do in the first round, despite having drastically better average draft position. They deserve more credit for that.

DW Toys said:

Honestly, it has been stated by annalists smarter than DW , that the talent level on our O Line is mediocre at best. I bet Von Miller beats most third string tackles but our depth was a huge step downward. We thought it was good but not so much. Yes injuries are devastating to continuity but nothing beats talent. I am in favor of young guys but that has to be tempered.

The Draft is still a fairly weak point on this Team. All the homers disagree but it is fact. He does fairly well with Round one, but any of us could do that. The scouting department loses focus after Round one and their is a crap shoot after that. Well we have no first rounder so that is that.

See if you can follow me here:
The Scouting department (notice I don't say BB) uses a formula in their Draft Board evaluations that are head scratchers. They can be as egotistical as they want and say "he is the guy we want regardless" (see Tavon Wilson and Jordan Richards Drafted four or five rounds too high), but the Draft Boards on the other 31 Teams put the value of the picks at odds with our board. Thus much more talented players slip through the cracks because we are stubborn.

Malik Jackson, Josh Norman, T.Y Hilton are pretty good right? And oh yeah we need a good WR and both FAs Marvin Jones and Sanu were taken after Wilson. O-Line? There are four or five or more good NFL starters after the 16th pick of the second round where we picked Mr. Wilson.

I can't blame all of this on who we picked and where. My point is we need more talent and let the kids get reps like Mason and Jackson but let them grow. It's obvious that Kline, Cannon (although I was really pulling for him) and Flemming are not NFL talented starters and questionable back ups.

BB does much better in Trades and FA for collecting talent that contributes. Look at our SB roster.

WE NEED TALENT:
I have no idea if they are in contact with CAP cut (and nagging injury) G Jahari Evans who still has a couple good years. Surely better than Kline or even Wendell.

Versatility?
Shaq Mason can play Center. Could Stork or Andrews get us a decent Draft pick? If you add Kline we have four Centers.
P.S. Saw a game with Stork at OT. I did not think he was bad.

FA pick ups:
Kelvin Beachum of the Steelers was an athletic OLT until and early season ACL. That should keep his ask down. He is a talent and could start at LT and move Solder to RT. A good three OT rotation. But Volmer's health is breaking down. OT Waddle might be a find when healthy. Scar could help this kid.

Give me health, veteran Jahari Evans and future stud Beachum and one high end O-Line Draft pick and that is a fix for the Broncos IMO.
DW Toys

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To say that this is not one of your stronger posts is to wildly undersell the point.

ctpatsfan77 said:

No Edelman, no Amendola, no Lewis.

I dunno, but maybe having one of those three guys available might have made a wee bit of difference in the first Denver game and against the JEST.

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Ware, Ward, Williams, Clady and Vazquez probably would have made a difference for the Broncos as well in that first game. This excuse making is silly. We were fairly healthy in the AFCCG and got beat because we couldn't block them. End of story.

letekro said:

Ware, Ward, Williams, Clady and Vazquez probably would have made a difference for the Broncos as well in that first game. This excuse making is silly. We were fairly healthy in the AFCCG and got beat because we couldn't block them. End of story.

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18 players total on IR - 6 of them were starters (including 2 OL and top 2 RBs.) That's not "fairly healthy."

Meanwhile, Denver had the fewest man games lost to injury.

Bench Kline and we might win the Afccg. Ive seen guys scream off the edge and Brady consistently step up past it but that was impossible with the way Kline gave up ground. Our entire line struggled but Kline was pitiful.

Ive never been a Kline fan and I am someone who has vehemently defended guys like Wendell and Tavon. Kline has to go. This is not because of one game either. His average pass blocking is a problem but I cannot take his run blocking. He doesnt move ANYONE.