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The 2016-2017 Offense


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Wow!
Did you watch even a few minutes of the Iowa political process? Or the Jets draft deliberations?
Personally I've sure I've done more moronic things than this in the past week.

But topping the list would be caring this much about this topic at this point in the year. How can you be this energized by this topic and still be able to enjoy the experience that is being a Patriots fan? I bet the Pats coaching staff isn't even so stressed about it.


Sorry, we will not be playing in the SB this Sunday because of the OL, so 'this time of year' would be the ideal time IMO to discuss fixing it.
So you think the coaching staff is fine with the OL? Interesting.
 
Andy, in that VERY SAME POST - the very same one - I said these exact words:

"The players need to (1) get healthy - a huge improvement would be Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT. (2) get better, especially the young players. And (3) they need to add a better veteran interior OL. I'd also like to see them draft two OT this year."

The very same post.
What I quoted was the entire post.

What is your point? What would you like me to say? I'll say it so this can stop.
 
Let me be plain.

It is ALL the OL.[/QUOTE]

I would quibble that injuries to the receivers also hurt a lot, especially those in the slot. With just a little more health, we would have played at home.

However, as a general proposition, I agree that THE reason that we are not in the SB is the OL. Anything other reason is far behind.
 
So, we exit the 2015 season, a few points and a Tom Brady beating away from a SB, and we did that with quality at most every position on the field, expect 3 of the worst 10 starting Gs in the NFL rotating in and out causing Brady to get pummelled. (I realize Jackson was injured in the final game, but would it have mattered at all?).

We had quality at every position except guard?

I strongly disagree. We did not have quality at the OT's. VOllmer is NOT a quality LT and Cannon is not a quality RT (nor is Fleming). Do you disagree?

Of you think that we had quality running backs, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
 
We had quality at every position except guard?

I strongly disagree. We did not have quality at the OT's. VOllmer is NOT a quality LT and Cannon is not a quality RT (nor is Fleming). Do you disagree?

Of you think that we had quality running backs, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
LT Solder
RT Vollmer
RB Lewis

are quality players. Their replacements were better than our Gs.
 
1) Assuming Solder will recover, he is the LT.
2) Vollmer is the RT
3) Given the health issues of the 2, I would want a guy who can be a reliable backup, playing either side. I don't know enough about Waddle to know if he is the guy, but he seems like a possibility. Signing him or a FA with some starting, and not sucking experience, and drafting one late to compete with Fleming for the 4th spot (which may be ps) would be fine.
4) I'm OK with Stork and think his decline was an anomaly due to injuries and crap playing next to him.
5) Andrews is camp fodder. I would hope he doesn't make the team because we have improved the talent at the position.
6) Now the Guards
Josh Kline is a few steps below Russ Hochstein. If he is on the roster, that's not a crime, but if he is competing for and getting playing time without major injuries, we are in trouble.
Tre Jackson showed me nothing this year. He was awful, and couldn't get ahead of Kline on the depth chart. He was 3rd out of 3 bad Gs. Now this doesn't mean he can never play at a decent level, but I don't know how you could count on that.
Mason was a little better, but still a bottom 10 in the NFL starting G (If you call all 3 of ours starters, they are 30% of the bottom 10 in the NFL). Again he could improve, but expecting a guy who came into the league not knowing how to pass block (not to mention if he was capable if he knew how) and didn't figure it out in a year, to magically get it year 2 is as risky as it gets.

So, we exit the 2015 season, a few points and a Tom Brady beating away from a SB, and we did that with quality at most every position on the field, expect 3 of the worst 10 starting Gs in the NFL rotating in and out causing Brady to get pummelled. (I realize Jackson was injured in the final game, but would it have mattered at all?).
So, we need to overhaul the position, and not pray that 3 of the 10 worst starting Gs in the NFL miraculously get good because they are rookies so sometimes rookies get better.
I would go out and sign a starting caliber G that is at least an average starter. By the way if a pro-bowl caliber guy is available, get him and turn OL into a strength. I do not consider Wendell that guy. He can come back for a camp tryout if he wants, but I would not have any real plans for him. We got the best he had in 2014 and that barely was acceptable. He has missed a year of football. I don't expect him back, but he would be good depth, and certainly better than Andrews.
So, sign a starter and draft another G no later than round 4.
Take whoever shows up at camp between Mason, Jackson, the pick, Kline, Wendell and let them battle for a job.
If the hopers are right, 2 might improve enough so they both start and the average starter we signed can be the 3rd G.
I do not care what it costs. If we make this OL average or better, we stand a very good chance of getting back to the SB. We would have gone this year with any OL we have had since 2001, except this one which was markedly the worst we have had.

Now, to the meat.

OT (4): I agree that we a fine set of starting OT's. I agree that we need a quality backup, who might be Waddle or a free agent. I also agree that we need to draft an OT. Given the injury histories, I might make this a higher priority draft choice than you might. I also not that VOllmer is on the last year of his contract. Perhaps, we should be extending him. If this is unreasonable, then perhaps it because we are not confident in having a 2017 starter, and drafting a possibility might be a good idea.

OC (2): I agree. We do need a backup center who is a starter if needed. Re-signing Wendell or an C/G equivalent would provide the needed backup. In any case, we need that backup.

OG (3): Yes, we need two starting guards and a backup. Note that I think that we require a backup center who can also play guard.

Your plan seems to be to sign a starting quality guard (who, in the best case for some would be beaten our by the youngsters. I certainly agree.

In addition, you want an additional 4th rounder (or 3rd rounder) to compete with the kids for spots. I'm OK with that.

OT (4) : Solder, Vollmer, free agent (Waddle or another) to be the #3, draftee (for me, a 2nd rounder)

OC (2): Stork plus a veteran backup (Wendell or anther)

OG1 (1): A veteran starter.
OG2 (1): a battle between Jackson, Mason, Kline, a draft pick and the veteran brought in as a backup.
OG3 (1): Since we already have an OG/OC backup, this could be anyone.

BOTTOM LINE
I don't the difference between your proposals and that of others. We all want to bring in a Waddle type, sign a starting OG, and draft an OT. I'm sure most would also be OK with an addition OG draftee who may or may not make the 53 man squad.

The only difference I see is that most of us would like the drafted OT to be a top draftee, who might be needed to replace Vollmer in 2017 or at lest be able to have lots of starting reps.
 
Now, to the meat.

OT (4): I agree that we a fine set of starting OT's. I agree that we need a quality backup, who might be Waddle or a free agent. I also agree that we need to draft an OT. Given the injury histories, I might make this a higher priority draft choice than you might. I also not that VOllmer is on the last year of his contract. Perhaps, we should be extending him. If this is unreasonable, then perhaps it because we are not confident in having a 2017 starter, and drafting a possibility might be a good idea.

OC (2): I agree. We do need a backup center who is a starter if needed. Re-signing Wendell or an C/G equivalent would provide the needed backup. In any case, we need that backup.

OG (3): Yes, we need two starting guards and a backup. Note that I think that we require a backup center who can also play guard.

Your plan seems to be to sign a starting quality guard (who, in the best case for some would be beaten our by the youngsters. I certainly agree.

In addition, you want an additional 4th rounder (or 3rd rounder) to compete with the kids for spots. I'm OK with that.

OT (4) : Solder, Vollmer, free agent (Waddle or another) to be the #3, draftee (for me, a 2nd rounder)

OC (2): Stork plus a veteran backup (Wendell or anther)

OG1 (1): A veteran starter.
OG2 (1): a battle between Jackson, Mason, Kline, a draft pick and the veteran brought in as a backup.
OG3 (1): Since we already have an OG/OC backup, this could be anyone.

BOTTOM LINE
I don't the difference between your proposals and that of others. We all want to bring in a Waddle type, sign a starting OG, and draft an OT. I'm sure most would also be OK with an addition OG draftee who may or may not make the 53 man squad.

The only difference I see is that most of us would like the drafted OT to be a top draftee, who might be needed to replace Vollmer in 2017 or at lest be able to have lots of starting reps.
Those that I disagree with are the ones saying we just need to let the IOL guys improve and give them a chance.
I want to walk into camp prepared to never see Mason or Jackson have to play a snap, as well as Kline finding a new line of work.
 
What I quoted was the entire post.

What is your point? What would you like me to say? I'll say it so this can stop.

You can just say that I (ivanvamp) was right. :)
 
Those that I disagree with are the ones saying we just need to let the IOL guys improve and give them a chance.
I want to walk into camp prepared to never see Mason or Jackson have to play a snap, as well as Kline finding a new line of work.

I have no disagreement. We both would secure a FA starter and a backup OC/G who could start if necessary.

This is indeed a plan for survival if NONE of the backups are capable of starting: Mason, Jackson or Kline.
 
The Patriots also have to devote a second day pick for an offensive tackle to back up Solder and
Vollmer and eventually replace the latter. Third day picks won't do it (Fleming 4th round, Cannon
5th round).
 
This team, during this run, has been more successful in the playoffs than any in history with the possible exception of SF which did it under 2 different HCs, systems and QBs.

Those points don't count?



Did Brady get hit 20 times in a playoff game last year?
The other difference is we were home. We couldn't be home this year because BB was afraid of his OL the last 6 weeks of the season.

It is ALL the OL.

Of course those points count I was just emphasizing that if not by those details we would have another off season like the past 10 at that point. This team score on the high 30's during the regular season and with the exception of last year cannot score more than low 20's in tough playoff games.

I agree entirely with our points on the offensive line, I just don't think we are fine at WR, we have a bunch of injury prone players hitting their 30's. Not a single promising guy in development and if Gronk goes down we are done, simple as that.
 
Of course those points count I was just emphasizing that if not by those details we would have another off season like the past 10 at that point. This team score on the high 30's during the regular season and with the exception of last year cannot score more than low 20's in tough playoff games.

I agree entirely with our points on the offensive line, I just don't think we are fine at WR, we have a bunch of injury prone players hitting their 30's. Not a single promising guy in development and if Gronk goes down we are done, simple as that.
Again, we have about the most successful post-season record in NFL history, so changing the plan to emphasize WRs doesn't seem to be appropriate. I know a lot of people think WRs are the key to winning, but I think those people are wrong. And I think its been proven.
 
You can just say that I (ivanvamp) was right. :)
OK. Whatever it is you feel you were right about, I agree you were. Can we be done now?
 
Highly regarded 4th rounders??
On what planet was Mason a good G? He was terrible this year. "Despite his size limitations and lack of pass blocking experience" So we can make an excuse so he doesn't have to be as good as other Gs and we are OK with that?



We gave them time this year, and it cost us a SB. Andrews and Kline are AVERAGE to ABOVE? Compared to who. They are lucky to be on a roster. If we cut them they will not make another teams roster.


Flashed? Flashed what? He played about 20 plays and got hurt again.


Neither was Camden NJ.

Look if you want to go into next season with the same collection of scrubs on the OL that caused BB to be afraid to be on offense, and pray they magically get better, I don't know what to say to you.

Personally I would rather sign players who have proven they can play or at least draft more Gs in round 4 that haven't proved they suck at the NFL level to compete with these guys that have proven that. Seems a better plan than hoping a bad player gets good because you think 4th round draft picks are 'highly regarded' and that means anything at all.

Guards are not drafted in the First Round. Using a 4th for a Guard IS a premium pick for that position. Over the past decade and a half the average draft position for a Patriot's Guard is an UDFA.

Mason is a superior pulling Guard. Period.
 
I would not be upset if our first 5 picks are LT, WR, LT/LG, WR, Move TE.

Hard to fix the OL through the draft without having the same issues we saw this year, especially since reasonably LTs are typically top of round 1 picks...and our first pick is what, 56 or something?

Go get Osemele or some veteran...Incognito? And re-sign Wendell. Better coaching, better luck with injuries.


There's a big difference between a year-1 and year-2 player, and a big difference between a year 2 and year 3 players. Think Wendell, for example. I doubt' mid-round rookies are going to upgrade, at least for the next couple of years, what we already have.
 
Guards are not drafted in the First Round. Using a 4th for a Guard IS a premium pick for that position. Over the past decade and a half the average draft position for a Patriot's Guard is an UDFA.

Mason is a superior pulling Guard. Period.

Some Guards certainly are drafted in the 1st round, it all depends on how much you value elite talent at that position.
 
Call me crazy but I'm still holding out hope that Dobson, Mr Fine China, can actually keep his pansy ass on the field and actually prove us wrong. He has the size and speed to get deep, he's shown flashes and it's so damn frustrating that he's a Piece Of Frigin Glass...
 
Call me crazy but I'm still holding out hope that Dobson, Mr Fine China, can actually keep his pansy ass on the field and actually prove us wrong. He has the size and speed to get deep, he's shown flashes and it's so damn frustrating that he's a Piece Of Frigin Glass...

I'm going to call you crazy. ;)

Dobson's issues go above and beyond his injuries. After all, he was perfectly healthy earlier in the season and allowed an outsider (Keyshawn Martin) to take over his reps.
 
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