OT - Hall of Fame Watch (Marvin Harrison IN, T.O. OUT)

SalemPats said:

Why is Eddie DeBartolo a HOF? Just because he was rich enough to own a team with a great coach/QB.

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He was a pioneer in circumventing the salary cap and funding off-shore sports books. He deserves to be in.

NashuaPats said:

The Colts seem to have some kind of hold over the NFL and football writers that I don't understand. Harrison over Owens? I don't think so. And it's amazing how little attention his alleged murder received. Dungy? Again, I don't think so. He did well in Tampa, but they couldn't win the SB until he left. And he only managed to win once with a stacked Indy team. The NFL and the media just overlooked the crowd noise skipping after they had previously been accused of pumping in fake crowd noise. The NFL changed the rules when they complained after losing to the Pats. Seriously, their owner is a drug addict and they receive so much favoritism.

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I do wonder b/c of his son's death that was in the minds of the voters.

I'm not a big fan of HOF's. Maybe if the players voted I'd look at them differently.

The HOF is a joke. If Dungy gets in then you should let Cowher, Shannahan, Coughlin, Carol, Holmgren and anybody else who won one title and was otherwise average. Some of those names I'd put in before Dungy.

It's a huge popularity content and get used to it because nobody is getting in from the Pats other than Brady, Bill and maybe Adam.

Swann
SB 4
SB MVP 1
Pro bowl 3
1st team all pro 1
yards 5462
rec 336
td 51

Playoffs
51 rec
907 yards
9 td

Cliff Branch
SB 3
Pro Bowl 4
1st team all pro 3
yards 8685
rec 501
td 67

Playoffs
73 rec
1289 yards
5 TD

The few things Swann has over Branch are minimally better and Branch smokes Swann in some others. Branch isn't in because he's a Raider. The SB MVP game was phenomenal by Swann but Branch still has him in receptions and yards.

The Pats will suffer a similar fate to the Raiders.

robertweathers said:

I do wonder b/c of his son's death that was in the minds of the voters.

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Perhaps. Not saying it should or shouldn't matter but he was also the first black coach to win a SB.

Gronk said:

Perhaps. Not saying it should or shouldn't matter but he was also the first black coach to win a SB.

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You are right. It shouldn't matter. It's totally irrelevant.

I can make a better case for Tom Flores - who is Hispanic to be in the HoF over Dungy.

robertweathers said:

You are right. It shouldn't matter. It's totally irrelevant.

I can make a better case for Tom Flores - who is Hispanic to be in the HoF over Dungy.

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Flores should be in yeah. But....Raider!

I can see the race issue from both sides. It's worth acknowledging surely but that doesn't mean automatic HOF. I mean, I don't think Lovie Smith would be in if the Bears had won that game.

Gronk said:

Flores should be in yeah. But....Raider!

I can see the race issue from both sides. It's worth acknowledging surely but that doesn't mean automatic HOF. I mean, I don't think Lovie Smith would be in if the Bears had won that game.

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I hear you. The issue is more mine than anyone elses.

I have a fundamental problem that non-Whites are/should receive special recognition for accomplishments as I think it is a complete insult to those people.

Interesting stat about Stanley Morgan:

Dr. Z: Hall of Fame incomplete without Pats' Morgan

I got out my book and did a little research on Stanley. For the first six years of his career in New England he averaged 22.6 yards per reception. In every one of those six, the number was at 20.9 or better. No receiver since then has come close.

To put it in perspective, Jerry Rice's first six seasons produced a 17.6 average.James Lofton, king of the recent long ballers, averaged ... well, I didn't take his first six. I took his best six, which contained a few 20-plussers ... 18.9. The best single year that Randy Moss, today's top deep threat, had was his rookie season ... 19.0.Marvin Harrison's best was 14.5.

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upstater1 said:

Interesting stat about Stanley Morgan:

Dr. Z: Hall of Fame incomplete without Pats' Morgan

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Morgan should absolutely be in there. Thats the problem when you play with ****ty QBs on mostly ****ty teams and an era when the passing game was nowhere near as receiver/QB friendly as it is now. If he had a big SB it would have helped him immeasurably.

Bruce and Owens should be in. Rand should also be in when he becomes eligible. Wayne, Fitzy and Johnson as well.

Why no T.O. in Hall of Fame?

“The Hall of Fame ought to be for people who made their teams better,” proclaims Hall of Fame G.M. Bill Polian, “not [those] who disrupted their teams and made them worse.”

Polian’s opinion, clearly motivated by a desire to help Harrison get in over Owens, helped justify preventing Owens from jumping Harrison in the line to football immortality. Eventually, Owens will get in under the same de facto pecking order that, in a strange sort of way, ensures a more orderly progression.

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Good luck any pats getting in easy

Well if TO isn't a first ballot then I'm sure Moss won't be in on the 1st ballot.. Moss had some similar antics to Owens, although nowhere near as many and they have similar numbers.

But i'm assuming it's the assholes like borges, gosselin, mcclain, myers, glauber, balzer, clayton, judge and king that were leading the charge against TO and those guys will still be there in 2 years when Moss comes up.

Off The Grid said:

Thank you. You obviously meant that as a Compliment.

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Hang Dai, ****in' Off The Grid. Hang Dai.

I would not have voted for either Harrison, Dungheap, or Owens.

Anyone who takes any HOF voting seriously these days is going along with the PC and Corporation influenced results the voters want to project to their gullible fan bases. It's all about the Benjamins folks. TD is a great selection for the PC & NFL business crowd and he did have a very good coaching career (thanks Peyton) so it's not that far of a reach. Besides, who in the media is going to question his credentials? (That's a rhetorical question as the answer is no one).

fnordcircle said:

Hang Dai, ****in' Off The Grid. Hang Dai.

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You said it, Brother.

robertweathers said:

I really have nothing against Dungy but when comparing him to the coaches I know on that list he ranks below all of them

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What criteria would you use to judge whether or not a coach is HOF worthy? Serious question.

Win Pct% + Playoff record + ?? Significant contribution?

Not sure.

SalemPats said:

yes, but he deserves zero credit for that. Plus wasn't he a fraudster

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yup. And many here give Kraft no credit. The owner IS important.

Coaches, Records, and Coaching Totals | Pro-Football-Reference.com (<<Link)

Comparing Dungy to PFR's list of NFL 479 coaches and their stats.

I agree that he is a borderline HOF coach but I would not call it an absurd induction. I do agree that being a media friendly guy helped nudge him over the line.

Regular season Win %

1. TD has 19th highest regular season winning percentage (0.668) in league history.
2. Coaches that rank above TD in win % and have at least 10 yrs of coaching experience are in the HOF.

John Madden+
Vince Lombardi+
George Allen+
Ray Flaherty+
George Halas+
Don Shula+
Paul Brown+
Tony Dungy+

3. Coaches that rank slightly below TD in win % with 10 yrs: ( + = HOF)

(OT: Is Seifert HOF worthy?)

George Seifert
Curly Lambeau+
Bill Cowher
Buck Shaw
Joe Gibbs+
Bud Grant+
Marty Schottenheimer
Bill Walsh+
Tom Landry+

Post Season Stats:

1. Dungy ranks near the bottom in postseason win %
2. Has 1 SB championship.
3. Took Tampa Bay to its first postseason in 15 years.
4. Tampa Bay's win% Pre-Dungy from 1991-95 (.325), or from 1983-95 (.293).
5. Tampa Bay's win% With Dundy from 1996-2001 (.563). Significant improvement.

Postseason win % of coaches listed above.

Tony2046 said:

What criteria would you use to judge whether or not a coach is HOF worthy? Serious question.

Win Pct% + Playoff record + ?? Significant contribution?

Not sure.

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I think you have it.

Winning percentage & # of wins
Contribution to the game
Playoff success & Super Bowls.

I know that there is no absolutely formula to determine who is/isn't worthy. For Dungy, lets look at it....

Why he is in:
139 wins- 22nd. Above him 1/2 are in the HoF
Career winning %- 12th. Above him 3/4 are in HoF
Game above .500- 70 9th 6 above him have more and aren't in (Schotsie and BB)
1 SB title

Why he should not be:
9-10 playoff record

IMO you cannot be a HoF coach with a losing playoff record. George Allen is in because he never had a losing season and was a PR machine. Sid Gilman basically invented the pro offense and passing game as we know it. Bud Grant took is teams to 4 SBs in 8 years. Steve Owen coached the Giants for 3 decades and has 2 championships.

You can obviously make a case for him but no way is he close to Grant, Gilman Owens as a coach. He just isn't.

Based on that standard of measurement, Holmgren, Seifert, Cowher, Shanny, Coughlin all get in.

Even though Tom Flores, Seifert, Shanny and Jimmy Johnson have less career wins, all have winning playoff records and multiple SB championships. In theory, that means a helluva lot more than regular season winning %.

Cleary Dungy was an above-average coach who won a championship. However I think Dungy being on NBC helped his cause incredibly. He stayed visible. If he drifted away in anonymity I dont think he gets in.