Potential Patriots: RB Matt Forte (UFA)

Deus Irae said:

White's awful. I understand that people who don't care about the running game might choose White over Blount to have a 3rd pass catcher in case of injury, but White really sucks.

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I care about the running game just fine. I won't disagree with you about White either. I don't want him seeing the field at all but Lewis is tiny and is coming off of injury. The Patriots could do worse for a back-up pass catcher for Lewis. If they can grab a back in the draft that they like as Lewis insurance, though, I would be absolutely fine with letting White go and bringing Blount back.

Perhaps the Pats can bring both Blount and White back and try to improve on Bolden.

KontradictioN said:

I care about the running game just fine. I won't disagree with you about White either. I don't want him seeing the field at all but Lewis is tiny and is coming off of injury. The Patriots could do worse for a back-up pass catcher for Lewis. If they can grab a back in the draft that they like as Lewis insurance, though, I would be absolutely fine with letting White go and bringing Blount back.

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You responded to my earlier post before the edit (my mistake on the first 'send'), but I'm sure your answer would have been fundamentally the same, so I'll go from here, and offer this potential alternative:

Patriots spend the money on Marvin Jones (example of good, but not elite, moneyed OWR) at WR, and then add Chris Ivory (wore down last season, but runs hard and would be kept fresh in a more limited role in NE) and Matt Forte at RB, letting Blount walk and White go. That would effectively end your high(ish)-end FA shopping, but you'd have

Brady/JAG
Forte/Lewis/Ivory/Bolden/Devlin
Edelman/Jones/LaFell/Amendola/Martin/Slater
Gronk/TE2
Solder/Vollmer/OT3/OT4
Jackson/Mason/Kline/OG4
Stork/Andrews

putting you at 25 "offensive" players, with 21 of them effectively known before OTAs and camps begin (Granted, this would only work if the team is comfortable with the idea that both Mason and Jackson will show real second season improvement).

VrabelJr said:

Actually, yes it is. Thanks for providing a reply with no substance. Here's one article

Between the Tackles

Here's another talking about how Jeremy Langford gets the majority of the between the tackles runs: Bears Need to Lean on Running Game in Cutler's Absence

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I've already addressed Forte's issues the last couple of seasons upthread.

The Bears IOL was atrocious and their OT play not far behind. They kicked their All Pro RG out to RT and weakened their unit at two spots.

Of course if this does not contribute to Forte being awful between the tackles in your estimations, then whatever. Langdord may have been better between the tackles, but he also was not playing on a sprained knee.

Far be it from me to dissuade you from using PFF as a reference, but stats in a vacuum like that lack context, and thus render your judgement reductive IMO.

Off The Grid said:

"30 years old."

"Definitely has a good year or two left in the tank."

Yeah, I'm gonna go with "Syntax Error" on that.

***

01 ~ Forte possibly has a good Year or two left in the Tank.
02 ~ But he almost certainly doesn't have any great Years left.
03 ~ And he's been pretty pedestrian for two Years: 4.0 YPC.
04 ~ He'll probably get $6,000,000 or so a Year.
05 ~ We can get guys off the Street for 4.0 YPC.
06 ~ Turns out: There's a Salary Cap.

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Disagree completely Grid, you can get guys off the street who can get 4 ypc against bad defenses but they need a guy who can get it against the good ones and isn't limited to running inside on first down. I don't care if it is Ivory, Miller, Martin, or Forte but I want them to get a true first down back who can get it done against good defenses.

Deus Irae said:

You responded to my earlier post before the edit (my mistake on the first 'send'), but I'm sure your answer would have been fundamentally the same, so I'll go from here, and offer this potential alternative:

Patriots spend the money on Marvin Jones at WR, and then add Chris Ivory (wore down last season, but runs hard and would be kept fresh in a more limited role in NE) and Matt Forte at RB, letting Blount walk and White go. That would effectively end your high(ish)-end FA shopping, but you'd have

Brady/JAG
Forte/Lewis/Ivory/Bolden/Devlin
Edelman/Jones/LaFell/Amendola/Martin/Slater
Gronk/TE2
Solder/Vollmer/OT3/OT4
Jackson/Mason/Kline/OG4
Stork/Andrews

putting you at 25 "offensive" players, with 21 of them effectively known before OTAs and camps begin (Granted, this would only work if the team is comfortable with the idea that both Mason and Jackson will show real second season improvement).

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I would love this approach, if they could squeeze a little more out of the cap and bring in Dwayne Allen as second TE it would be complete fix for the offense.

Ivan said:

I would love this approach, if they could squeeze a little more out of the cap and bring in Dwayne Allen as second TE it would be complete fix for the offense.

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Great idea, except it leaves a glaring hole in the most important area of need: interior OL. They need an upgrade there, or improved running backs won't really help that much.

Do we even know that Lewis will be back to start the season? The guy tore an ACL mid-year - usually takes a full year for that type of injury (and then some time to regain form).

My guess is that Lewis misses pre-season and goes on PUP and isn't put on the game roster until around week 10 or so (which might be great for a playoff run).

So:
Develin
White
Bolden
Blount? (He's a FA)
Someone else, like a Forte?
Gaffney?

ivanvamp said:

Great idea, except it leaves a glaring hole in the most important area of need: interior OL. They need an upgrade there, or improved running backs won't really help that much.

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We disagree on this. I think Belichick drafted the right guys to run the ball in Stork, Mason, and Jackson, I think the problem was the RBs other than Lewis, who was able to run both inside and outside, but Blount, White, and Bolden and later Jackson are simply bad running backs when it comes to running the ball and that, injury, and inexperience culminated in a really lousy run game the second half of the year. The interior OL will still need to improve their pass blocking but run blocking is their strength but they need a good RB to make the most out of it.

I do think they need to draft a high quality tackle in this draft and would like a good veteran guard in case but I like the young interior OL.

50-yard-line said:

Do we even know that Lewis will be back to start the season? The guy tore an ACL mid-year - usually takes a full year for that type of injury (and then some time to regain form).

My guess is that Lewis misses pre-season and goes on PUP and isn't put on the game roster until around week 10 or so (which might be great for a playoff run).

So:
Develin
White
Bolden
Blount? (He's a FA)
Someone else, like a Forte?
Gaffney?

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Good point. May have to carry White regardless.

In all this discussion lets not forget Forte is an outstanding receiving running back who is very physical.

ivanvamp said:

Great idea, except it leaves a glaring hole in the most important area of need: interior OL. They need an upgrade there, or improved running backs won't really help that much.

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That's where the question of improved play from the two rookies (Mason/Jackson), and even of Stork, comes in. This year's (current) FA guard crop is thin. Assuming current projected FAs get to market:

Evan Mathis will be available, but NE already passed on him last year
Jeff Allen will be available, though he struggles with health
Kelechi Osemele will be available, but he may want tackle money
Alex Boone will be available, but he's going to want to get paid
Ritchie Incognito (see Mathis, Evan)
Ramon Foster will be available
Mike Harris will be available, but he's going to want to get paid


After that, the dropoff is pretty steep.

Deus Irae said:

That's where the question of improved play from the two rookies (Mason/Jackson), and even of Stork, comes in. This year's (current) FA guard crop is thin. Assuming current projected FAs get to market:

Evan Mathis will be available, but NE already passed on him last year
Jeff Allen will be available, though he struggles with health
Kelechi Osemele will be available, but he may want tackle money
Alex Boone will be available, but he's going to want to get paid
Ritchie Incognito (see Mathis, Evan)
Ramon Foster will be available
Mike Harris will be available, but he's going to want to get paid


After that, the dropoff is pretty steep.

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If I had a say, which I don't obviously, I'd go hard after Osemele to bring him in as a starting guard and first tackle back-up...and yeah, pay him as much as I could. Two birds, one stone. Unless they're high on Waddle or Cannon was more hurt than they let on, they need a third OT...

50-yard-line said:

If I had a say, which I don't obviously, I'd go hard after Osemele to bring him in as a starting guard and first tackle back-up...and yeah, pay him as much as I could. Two birds, one stone. Unless they're high on Waddle or Cannon was more hurt than they let on, they need a third OT...

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If his price is too rich, then there are some decent OG prospects, like Cody Whitehair, in the third round if the Patriots want to go that route instead...

sevengables_2207 said:

If his price is too rich, then there are some decent OG prospects, like Cody Whitehair, in the third round if the Patriots want to go that route instead...

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Please no. No more rookies. That was a huge part of the problem this year - rookie wall, inexperience, lack of veteran leadership on the line...

You bring in rookies to complement a veteran segment of the roster - Trey Flowers and Geneo Grissom to try out and to ease in if you can't sign Jones and Nink drops off, for example.

The pats did this expecting Wendell, Vollmer, and Solder (maybe Connolly - don't remember the time frame for him) to hold down the OL. Mason, Jackson, Stork, and maybe Andrews (don't know about Flemming and Waddle, losing faith on Cannon) are all young and developing. We don't need anyone behind their curve, but maybe someone ahead of it.

Deus Irae said:

You responded to my earlier post before the edit (my mistake on the first 'send'), but I'm sure your answer would have been fundamentally the same, so I'll go from here, and offer this potential alternative:

Patriots spend the money on Marvin Jones (example of good, but not elite, moneyed OWR) at WR, and then add Chris Ivory (wore down last season, but runs hard and would be kept fresh in a more limited role in NE) and Matt Forte at RB, letting Blount walk and White go. That would effectively end your high(ish)-end FA shopping, but you'd have

Brady/JAG
Forte/Lewis/Ivory/Bolden/Devlin
Edelman/Jones/LaFell/Amendola/Martin/Slater
Gronk/TE2
Solder/Vollmer/OT3/OT4
Jackson/Mason/Kline/OG4
Stork/Andrews

putting you at 25 "offensive" players, with 21 of them effectively known before OTAs and camps begin (Granted, this would only work if the team is comfortable with the idea that both Mason and Jackson will show real second season improvement).

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The bolded depth chart, if possible, would be fantastic. Even if you subtract one of Forte or Ivory and replace him with Blount, it would still be a juggernaut NFL offense.

If the Pats can shore up the OL and add a running back like Forte, Ivory, or both... and a receiver like Jones, then health-permitting, it would be a nightmare for opposing defenses to game plan for.

Deus Irae said:

You responded to my earlier post before the edit (my mistake on the first 'send'), but I'm sure your answer would have been fundamentally the same, so I'll go from here, and offer this potential alternative:

Patriots spend the money on Marvin Jones (example of good, but not elite, moneyed OWR) at WR, and then add Chris Ivory (wore down last season, but runs hard and would be kept fresh in a more limited role in NE) and Matt Forte at RB, letting Blount walk and White go. That would effectively end your high(ish)-end FA shopping, but you'd have

Brady/JAG
Forte/Lewis/Ivory/Bolden/Devlin
Edelman/Jones/LaFell/Amendola/Martin/Slater
Gronk/TE2
Solder/Vollmer/OT3/OT4
Jackson/Mason/Kline/OG4
Stork/Andrews

putting you at 25 "offensive" players, with 21 of them effectively known before OTAs and camps begin (Granted, this would only work if the team is comfortable with the idea that both Mason and Jackson will show real second season improvement).

Click to expand...

I don't see Michael Williams going anywhere (hope not), so they need a TE3/move TE.

50-yard-line said:

Please no. No more rookies. That was a huge part of the problem this year - rookie wall, inexperience, lack of veteran leadership on the line...

You bring in rookies to complement a veteran segment of the roster - Trey Flowers and Geneo Grissom to try out and to ease in if you can't sign Jones and Nink drops off, for example.

The pats did this expecting Wendell, Vollmer, and Solder (maybe Connolly - don't remember the time frame for him) to hold down the OL. Mason, Jackson, Stork, and maybe Andrews (don't know about Flemming and Waddle, losing faith on Cannon) are all young and developing. We don't need anyone behind their curve, but maybe someone ahead of it.

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FWIW, they also let their offensive line coach go after their season ended, so coaching (or lack thereof) played a role in the struggles during crucial parts of the season... in addition to what you delineated.

Be that as it may, I agree with you that perhaps if there is a quality free agent they like, they should target him above drafting another unproven talent.

However, it would not surprise me if they think the problems were more coaching-related instead of talent or performance-related, and thus are content to go into next season with what they have and perhaps devote a mid-to-low draft pick on the position and/or mine the bargain-basement level of free agency.

TheRazorsEdge said:

In all this discussion lets not forget Forte is an outstanding receiving running back who is very physical.

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I can't believe he had 102 receptions in 2014

Believe it! He's incredibly talented all around, he's been on garbage offenses and his last two years with a revolving door of bad QBs and a defense that is lousy at best , defenses have been able to zero in on him. Defenses won't have luxury to do that if he's on our offense.

That's the biggest thing ... His best years were when the bears had 2+ receiving options healthy (Brandson Marshall + Alshon Jeffery ) preventing defenses from loading the box. Last two years Jeffery has been on and off hurt, Marshall left, cutler was hurt, oline was injured, Bennett hurt.. He was playing vs 8 in the box all day.