patriots are terrible at drafting wr

PatsfanCP said:

The patriots are bad talent evaluators at the WR spot but yet the steelers money at it

Antonio brown was drafted in the 2010 draft in the 6th round pick 195 and he is now the best WR in the league.


Martavis Bryant was drafted
NFL draft: 2014 / Round: 4 / Pick: 118

Great deep threat with great speed good route runner plays like his height of 6 feet 4

Sammy Coates didn't play much but he will be a good WR

NFL draft: 2015 / Round: 3 / Pick: 87

the patriots missed on all these guys


It pains me every year teams find WRs and the patriots always have flops

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Other teams don't find WRs every year. And especially the Steelers. Last summer, I did a comparison that showed just how many WR picks the Steelers make in comparison to how many are successful and it surprised many people. Same with the Packers. And I used the same criteria with the Pats. And low and behold, come to find out that they all had about the same success rate.

When I did my evaluation, I ignored the year 2000 since Belichick was using Bobby Grier's scouting information and not his own. I went from 2001 through 2015, listing out the picks used for both teams. However, I gave incompletes for players with less than 3 years experience unless they'd already been cut from the team and weren't on a practice squad.

Lets look at just how many picks the Steelers have used on WR since 2001 and compare it to the Patriots:

Steelers:
2001 - Chris Taylor - 7th round pick
2002 - Lee Mays - 6th round pick
2003 - None
2004 - None
2005 - Fred Gibson - 4th round pick
2006 - Santonio Holmes - 1st round pick , Willie Reid - 4th round pick
2007 - Dallas Baker - 7th round pick
2008 - Limas Sweed - 2nd round pick
2009 - Mike Wallace - 3rd round pick
2010 - Emmanuel Sanders - 3rd round pick, Antonio Brown - 6th round pick
2011 - None
2012 - Toney Clemons - 7th round pick
2013 - Markus Wheaton - 3rd round pick, Justin Brown - 6th round pick
2014 - Martavius Bryant - 4th round pick
2015 - Sammie Coates - 3rd round pick

Please note that I am not including Antwan Randle-El because he was drafted to be a QB primarily, not a WR. Sammie Coates is incomplete. I had previously given the Steelers credit for 4 successes in 12 (33%) picks because I had Wheaton and Bryant as incompletes. They are now at 6 successes in 14 picks (42.9%) because I think it's safe to say that both can be considered successes.

Patriots:
2001 - None
2002 - Deion Branch - 2nd round, David Givens - 7th round
2003 - Bethel Johnson - 2nd round
2004 - P.K. Sam - 5th round
2005 - None
2006 - Chad Jackson - 2nd round
2007 - None
2008 - None
2009 - Brandon Tate - 3rd round, Julian Edelman - 7th round
2010 - Taylor Price - 3rd round
2011 - None
2012 - Jeremy Ebert - 7th round
2013 - Aaron Dobson - 2nd round, Josh Boyce - 4th round
2014 - Jeremy Gallon - 7th round
2015 - None

The Patriots have used 12 picks on WR. Just like I didn't include Randle-El, I'm not including Slater as a "WR". Dobson and Boyce I considered incompletes.. So, that is 3 in 10 that are successes. One could argue that Bethel Johnson was mediocre, but there is no sense. Who knows what will happen with Dobson and Boyce.

Where does the 25-30% rank with other teams over the last 15 years. You can do the math if you want to find out. But I think you'll find that the Patriots are closer to the rule than the exception..

PatsfanCP said:

The patriots run a very complex system but you can tell me that a rare talent like Antonio brown could not play in this offense or martavis Bryant I think player like jordy Nelson would excel in the Patriots system

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How do you know that Antonio Brown is a rare talent? He plays pitch and catch with his QB. They have very simplistic routes in Pittsburgh.

Players like Brown and Nelson are the exceptions, not the rule. It took Nelson 4 years before he was able to put it all together in GB.

PatsfanCP said:

The draft is a crapshoot but I really wish the patriots scouts went more In Depth


One that really bothers me the patriots wasted a second round pick on Aaron Dobson

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How was it "a waste" when he was rated as a 2nd round pick by most of the draft sites including the professionals? The only injury that Dobson had during his college career was a knee sprain that forced him to miss 2 games his senior season. And the NFL Medical staff as well as the Patriots Medical staff cleared him.

DaBruinz said:

How do you know that Antonio Brown is a rare talent? He plays pitch and catch with his QB. They have very simplistic routes in Pittsburgh.

Players like Brown and Nelson are the exceptions, not the rule. It took Nelson 4 years before he was able to put it all together in GB.

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He is a fine route runner with elite elusiveness he has great timing and he attacks the ball in the air and great ball judgement Antonio brown is the best WR in the NFL

For the Patriots to have acquired Martavius Bryant in the draft, they'd either had to give up Bryan Stork or hope that someone would take a low-ball offer for them to move up past Pittsburgh.. And considering that the Patriots had the 30th pick in the 4th round, it probably would have taken more than the 5th pick in the 6th round to do it..

PatsfanCP said:

He is a fine route runner with elite elusiveness he has great timing and he attacks the ball in the air and great ball judgement Antonio brown is the best WR in the NFL

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None of which proves that he'd have success in the Patriots offense. Do you understand the Patriots offense at all? Players do not just go run routes. They are told the basic formation and routes, but then they are expected to make adjustments to their routes based on what they see from defenses. And those adjustments are supposed to be the same as what Brady expects. Nothing you mentioned says that Brown could work in the Patriots offense.

The Steelers offense is this. They get a route. They run that route unless Ben breaks the pocket. If that happens, it turns into a free for all and the receivers are expected to cut their routes and just try to get open.

Deus Irae said:

It's not arguable. He was the starter, and then he wasn't.

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Donte' Stallworth: Game Logs at NFL.com

Please show me how this feeds into your "he was a starter then he wasn't" because he starts off as not starting, then starts only 4 straight games, then isn't the starter, then starts for 2, then isn't a starter, then starts for two, then doesn't start for 3 before starting again and then not starting to finish off the season..

None of which proves that he'd have success in the Patriots offense. Do you understand the Patriots offense at all? Players do not just go run routes. They are told the basic formation and routes, but then they are expected to make adjustments to their routes based on what they see from defenses. And those adjustments are supposed to be the same as what Brady expects. Nothing you mentioned says that Brown could work in the Patriots offense.

The Steelers offense is this. They get a route. They run that route unless Ben breaks the pocket. If that happens, it turns into a free for all and the receivers are expected to cut their routes and just try to get open.[/QUOTE]


Yes I do know about the complexity of the patriots offensive scheme they run one of the most complex offenses in the league

But Antonio brown is a rare talent like randy moss not saying his most but he is a rare talent a future hall of famer I feel

Do I feel that player like player like Antonio brown could learn the patriots system yes really if he was a rookie.

the patriots are the best origination In football but yes the steelers have had better wide outs and due now

And up to this point Aaron Dobson has been a flop

captain stone said:

Bill's recent WR draft screw-ups:

2009: using #83 overall on Brandon Tate, whose production, experience, health & character issues should have pegged him as a borderline top-150 value.

2010: throwing away #53 overall on the crapness of Germy Cunnyham instead of running to the podium
to announce the selection of the Charlie Weis-trained Golden Tate, who I will go to my grave believing
would have been absolutely dynamite with Brady, similar to Deion Branch, only even better.

2011: not making a better effort to keep UDFA Andre Holmes who, with his size & decent-enough speed, could have been a nice #4 OWR.

2012: not trading #62 to Denver, which would've returned #s 87 & 120, instead of to GB, which only
returned #s 90 & 163. Bill therefore missed the opportunity to draft, among others, Marvin Jones.

2013: Aaron Dropson instead of Keenan Allen…enough said.

2014: using #206 on size/speed limited DB Jemea Thomas instead of raw but size/speed gifted Jeff Janis.

2015: using #64 on 6th-round talent Jordan Richards instead of maybe Jaelen Stong or Tyler Lockett;
and using #202 on AJ Derby (not even the best TE available, never mind best player available) instead
of Tre McBride.

The two destiny-changing mistakes are of course missing-out on Golden Tate & Keenan Allen. If Golden
Tate were on the 2011 roster, the NEP would've been SB champions.

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Always love when you post crap out there with so many assumptions.
The Patriots did try to keep Andre Holmes. They wanted him on the practice squad. But let's forget that had a total of 1 good year. That was 2014 where he had 47 receptions, 693 yards and 4 TDs.

You're assuming that Denver would have wanted to trade with the Pats..

Keenan Allen ? You mean the guy who almost quit because training camp his rookie season was too hard??

Since you missed it, the Pats had Jaelen Strong on the team this year. He bombed out and the Pats sent him packing. Jordan Richards isn't 6th round talent despite what you claim.

WTF has Tyler Lockett done? Nada.
Tre McBride? Mr. 2 receptions for 8 total yards?? Yep. I see how he'd have made a difference..

You are the king of 20/20 hindsight and talking out your rear-end. If you were so great at talent evaluation, you'd have been hired long before now with all these great (in your mind) things you throw up there. But just remember. You're also the one who said that the Patriots screwed up with Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon amongst others..

DaBruinz said:

Donte' Stallworth: Game Logs at NFL.com

Please show me how this feeds into your "he was a starter then he wasn't" because he starts off as not starting, then starts only 4 straight games, then isn't the starter, then starts for 2, then isn't a starter, then starts for two, then doesn't start for 3 before starting again and then not starting to finish off the season..

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DaBruinz said:

Always love when you post crap out there with so many assumptions.
The Patriots did try to keep Andre Holmes. They wanted him on the practice squad. But let's forget that had a total of 1 good year. That was 2014 where he had 47 receptions, 693 yards and 4 TDs.

You're assuming that Denver would have wanted to trade with the Pats..

Keenan Allen ? You mean the guy who almost quit because training camp his rookie season was too hard??

Since you missed it, the Pats had Jaelen Strong on the team this year. He bombed out and the Pats sent him packing. Jordan Richards isn't 6th round talent despite what you claim.

WTF has Tyler Lockett done? Nada.
Tre McBride? Mr. 2 receptions for 8 total yards?? Yep. I see how he'd have made a difference..

You are the king of 20/20 hindsight and talking out your rear-end. If you were so great at talent evaluation, you'd have been hired long before now with all these great (in your mind) things you throw up there. But just remember. You're also the one who said that the Patriots screwed up with Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon amongst others..

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I like duron Harmon but Logan Ryan is a nickel corner with the skill set that he has

PatsfanCP said:

He is a fine route runner with elite elusiveness he has great timing and he attacks the ball in the air and great ball judgement Antonio brown is the best WR in the NFL

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Brown's great. Pittsburgh's been tremendous at picking their WRs, this century*.

1st and 2nd round hits since 2000:

Burress (1st)
Randel El (2nd)
Holmes (1st)

1st and 2nd round misses since 2000:

Sweed (2nd)

3rd round and lower hits since 2000:

Wallace (3rd)
Brown (6th)
Sanders (3rd)
Wheaton (3rd)
Bryant (4th)


3rd round and lower misses since 2000:
Farmer (4th) - 3 years
Taylor (7th) - 0 years
Mays (6th) - 4 years
Gibson (4th) - 0 years
Reid (3rd) - 2 years
Baker (7th) - 1 year
Toney Clemons (7th) - 2 years
Brown (6th) - 2 years

Too soon to tell:

Sammie Coates (3rd) - Rookie season

So....

Looking at their WR picks in the top 3 rounds, they've had 6 hits and just 2 misses.
Looking at their WR picks in rounds 4-6, they've had 2 hits, including one who's considered arguably the best WR in the league at the moment, and 4 misses.
They've had 3 7th round WR picks, and none have stuck.


That's an 8:6 hit/miss ratio in the first 6 rounds, and an 8:9 hit/miss ratio overall, for the WR position, with one player being too soon to call.

Compare that to the Patriots, who have 1 hit in the second round (Branch), 3 misses in the second round (Johnson, Jackson, Dobson), 2 misses in the third round (Tate, Price), and no other hits outside of the two 7th rounders (Givens, Edelman), making them 3 for 13 overall, and 1 for 9 outside the 7th round.


*Any missed players or math mistakes are completely unintentional

Deus Irae said:

Brown's great. Pittsburgh's been tremendous at picking and developing their WRs, this century*.

1st and 2nd round hits since 2000:

Burress (1st)
Randel El (2nd)
Holmes (1st)

1st and 2nd round misses since 2000:

Sweed (2nd)

3rd round and lower hits since 2000:

Wallace (3rd)
Brown (6th)
Sanders (3rd)
Wheaton (3rd)
Bryant (4th)


3rd round and lower misses since 2000:
Farmer (4th) - 3 years
Taylor (7th) - 0 years
Mays (6th) - 4 years
Gibson (4th) - 0 years
Reid (3rd) - 2 years
Baker (7th) - 1 year
Toney Clemons (7th) - 2 years
Brown (6th) - 2 years

Too soon to tell:

Sammie Coates (3rd) - Rookie season

So....

Looking at their WR picks in the top 3 rounds, they've had 6 hits and just 2 misses.
Looking at their WR picks in rounds 4-6, they've had 2 hits, including one who's considered arguably the best WR in the league at the moment, and 4 misses.
They've had 3 7th round WR picks, and none have stuck.


That's an 8:6 hit/miss ratio in the first 6 rounds, and an 8:9 hit/miss ratio overall, for the WR position, with one player being too soon to call.



*Any missed players or math mistakes are completely unintentional

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I like what the steelers do they do run a different scheme than the patriots bytbthry have drafted some very good ball players

DaBruinz said:

Since you missed it, the Pats had Jaelen Strong on the team this year. He bombed out and the Pats sent him packing. Jordan Richards isn't 6th round talent despite what you claim.

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I think you might be thinking of a different guy. Jaelen Strong just finished his rookie season with the Texans, he's definitely never played here. He's also wasn't very good and I'm not optimistic that he'll become a lot better. I think he has bust written all over him, if you can't get in shape for your first NFL season then you probably don't have what it takes to become a noteworthy player.

PatsfanCP said:

I like duron Harmon but Logan Ryan is a nickel corner with the skill set that he has

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I'm not very high on Ryan either, but he's still a solid return on a third round pick.

BradyFTW! said:

I'm not very high on Ryan either, but he's still a solid return on a third round pick.

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Yeah but moving forward I hope that patriots get another corner to move him back to 3rd or 4th corner Ryan should be a 2 or a 1 DB

I think it might be more difficult for NE's receivers to excel early on. So for me the question is what is the effect of that on a young player. I wonder if some of the flops we have had would have flourished had they been brought up in a simpler system. So it's a question of confidence. The system forces you to think early on rather than just play. Even Edelman early on was meh, but he is mentally tenacious and took it to another level. Brown is a stud, I think it would have taken him just a touch longer to be the player he is right now. But he still would have got there, like Edelman.

alvinnf said:

Even Edelman early on was meh

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Not so sure about that. He opened everyone's eyes by returning a punt for a TD in the preseason (Belichick's "Wally Pipp" comments were famously aired during his documentary), and went on to have the most productive rookie season for a WR in terms of receptions (37 catches--tied w/ Dobson) since Deion Branch.

To top off his rookie campaign, he stood out tremendously with 2 TD grabs and a couple of plays where he basically took on numerous defenders in the playoff loss to Baltimore.

BradyFTW! said:

I think you might be thinking of a different guy. Jaelen Strong just finished his rookie season with the Texans, he's definitely never played here. He's also wasn't very good and I'm not optimistic that he'll become a lot better. I think he has bust written all over him, if you can't get in shape for your first NFL season then you probably don't have what it takes to become a noteworthy player.

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Damn.. Got Jalen Saunders and Jaelen Strong mixed up. Sorry, Capt. Stone.

PatsfanCP said:

I like duron Harmon but Logan Ryan is a nickel corner with the skill set that he has

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Logan Ryan is a Nickel? Clearly you watched none of the game this season..

I was hoping for Marvin Jones but not at 7 million per,

Marvin Jones says “no hometown discount” for Bengals