The 2016 Patriots Will Be a Juggernaut

mgteich said:

You risk having problems if with Solder or Vollmer gets hurt. I agree that all the backups can't be starters. However, I would think that if ONE of the backups is starter quality, it would be the swing OT, who is the Game Day backup. Also, will Vollmer be back for 2017? If not, we should draft a potential replacement.

That is why so many think that we need a free agent backup who might be able to start if necessary. Belichick now thinks that this position is worth $3M a year (Cannon). Maybe Waddle and a top draftee would be enough.

Many of us would like to hear a trade being announced before the middle of the 2nd round whereby the patriots move up for an OT.

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Well, I did say draft two OT. I want the first one to be their first pick available, and that guy should be able to step in as a starter if necessary. And then he'd replace Vollmer in 2017. Then the second OT drafted this year becomes the primary backup in 2017.

Maybe Waddle is good enough so they can draft two OT and have one be on the practice squad.

Ivan said:

Disagree on this SUP, imo the draft is not the answer at RB but might help with their needs at OT, WR, and possibly LB. I think they can easily afford one of the to RBs on this year's market and should go hard after one. 5 million a year is with it for Forte and he would instantly upgrade their run game, passing attack out of the backfield on really downs, and would do more to help their young OL than bringing more in would. For me RB is the to priority in free agency and I don't want anything to do with the also rans like Morris? I think Belichick realizes this is their top need and will make a run at the top RBs. They can't afford to go bargain basement this free agency when it comes to RB.

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That's one way to look at it and we'll find out soon enough this spring, but my concerns would be Belichick having a much lower priority of RB than other positions, particularly since we already have guys like Lewis and White. A value pick and a draft pick could very well do it, especially if they take a draft pick like I expect them to. We also have Gaffney coming back for a tryout in TC, for whatever that may be worth.

I'd love to see a guy like Forte added, but I'm wondering if it will be much closer to the Blount's, Ridley's, or Morris's of the world? As you mention, we have to address the OL as well or all of this is a moot point anyway.

I don't think the answer at RB is in the draft, Bill hardly ever plays RBs their rookie year. Worried about fumbling issues.

Unless the o-line improves with either talent or experience it doesn't really matter much who is running the ball. It'll be interesting what the coaching staff thinks and does with the line.

slash83 said:

Unless the o-line improves with either talent or experience it doesn't really matter much who is running the ball. It'll be interesting what the coaching staff thinks and does with the line.

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I think they can run block of they get wa good RB I just don't think Blount is that guy. Lewis did week running the ball he just doesn't have the size to hold up carrying the ball full time so they need to find a RB who can get outside and catch the ball out of the backfield and once again I don't consider Blount to be that guy.

Ivan said:

I think they can run block of they get wa good RB I just don't think Blount is that guy. Lewis did week running the ball he just doesn't have the size to hold up carrying the ball full time so they need to find a RB who can get outside and catch the ball out of the backfield and once again I don't consider Blount to be that guy.

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Will see, Im not a football expert my any means but it didn't seem like the line every got a good push or opened up many running lanes.

supafly said:

That's one way to look at it and we'll find out soon enough this spring, but my concerns would be Belichick having a much lower priority of RB than other positions, particularly since we already have guys like Lewis and White. A value pick and a draft pick could very well do it, especially if they take a draft pick like I expect them to. We also have Gaffney coming back for a tryout in TC, for whatever that may be worth.

I'd love to see a guy like Forte added, but I'm wondering if it will be much closer to the Blount's, Ridley's, or Morris's of the world? As you mention, we have to address the OL as well or all of this is a moot point anyway.

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I will be greatly disappointed if they go that route and I think their chances of winning another Super Bowl will be seriously jeopardized if they end up with absolutely no run game in the playoffs once again. Can Brady overcome it? Yes. Does it make it significantly tougher for him? Yes. Did it make it much tougher for the OL to execute and protect him? Absolutely.

Imo Belichick knows the run game is an issue and knows he needs to get it fixed, that's why the 3 interior OL he has drafted the past two years were all strong run blockers, with Mason considered to be the best run blocking lineman in the country. I think the ability to run right at people and win the fistfight is important to Belichick and he brought the lineman in with that purpose in mind but couldn't find the first down back he needs in part years draft of free agency. Lewis was a great find but he can't do it on his own. Belichick does everything with a clear reason and drafting 3 interior OL who are all really good run blockers was done with the purpose of rebuilding his interior OL to be able to run effectively. Fortunately this is an excellent free agent class and they aren't going to command the 10 million a season that guys like Peterson and Lynch have gotten, in fact they could almost certainly get both Forte and Lamar Miller for that money. And while I don't as that happening 5 million for starting back capable of putting up 1, 300-1,500 yards would be money really well spent and would bring them the balance needed to beat to defense's. Forte is still at the top of my list but Doug Martin or Miller would also be great additions, and Ivory would be a great replacement for Blount. The defense is in excellent shape so they can spend their money in free agency on offense, and adding a good running back and a real deep threat would make this a much better team next season. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do in this free agency and feel like it's a good market for their needs, whereas the loss of their first founder and what looks like an average draft class make filling their immediate needs there less likely.

slash83 said:

Will see, Im not a football expert my any means but it didn't seem like the line every got a good push or opened up many running lanes.

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I thought Lewis did a good job running the ball and was surprisingly good between the tackles when given the chance, and that was with Andrew at center. Mason and Jackson were brought in to run the ball as that's what both excelled at in college, and I think that with Stork healthy to start next season they will have a young interior OL with the size and ability to produce a good run game. Mason is an exceptional run blockers and Stork and Jackson excelled together at it at FSU, so the potential is clearly there.

Ivan said:

I will be greatly disappointed if they go that route and I think their chances of winning another Super Bowl will be seriously jeopardized if they end up with absolutely no run game in the playoffs once again. Can Brady overcome it? Yes. Does it make it significantly tougher for him? Yes. Did it make it much tougher for the OL to execute and protect him? Absolutely.

Imo Belichick knows the run game is an issue and knows he needs to get it fixed, that's why the 3 interior OL he has drafted the past two years were all strong run blockers, with Mason considered to be the best run blocking lineman in the country. I think the ability to run right at people and win the fistfight is important to Belichick and he brought the lineman in with that purpose in mind but couldn't find the first down back he needs in part years draft of free agency. Lewis was a great find but he can't do it on his own. Belichick does everything with a clear reason and drafting 3 interior OL who are all really good run blockers was done with the purpose of rebuilding his interior OL to be able to run effectively. Fortunately this is an excellent free agent class and they aren't going to command the 10 million a season that guys like Peterson and Lynch have gotten, in fact they could almost certainly get both Forte and Lamar Miller for that money. And while I don't as that happening 5 million for starting back capable of putting up 1, 300-1,500 yards would be money really well spent and would bring them the balance needed to beat to defense's. Forte is still at the top of my list but Doug Martin or Miller would also be great additions, and Ivory would be a great replacement for Blount. The defense is in excellent shape so they can spend their money in free agency on offense, and adding a good running back and a real deep threat would make this a much better team next season. I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do in this free agency and feel like it's a good market for their needs, whereas the loss of their first founder and what looks like an average draft class make filling their immediate needs there less likely.

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Lots of good points. You're preaching to the choir regarding the need to run the ball. I'd love to finally see a major move at the position. The concerns I'd have with the prospect of a bigger named FA back signed are:

1) Belichick won't place it high enough on the list of priorities, although I agree with you that he should. He may feel that there are other moves that need to be made first.

2) We'll continue to run the offense through Brady. It's clear that they spent money on Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, LaFell, and Chandler to try and give Brady weapons, and that we're going to continue to rely very heavily on the quick, timing routes, as we should. I'm worried that Belichick may have a difficult time justifying too much money spent on this position just for that reason alone.

3) Belichick will choose the value of selecting a back with a cheap salary and cap hit. With very little resources spent since the double dip of Ridley/Vereen (2011) we're already way overdue, and he'll likely be looking both towards filling out the depth chart as well as the future.

It's far too early to say who is going to be a juggernaut next season. What if both tackles, who are injury prone, are IR'ed in training camp? What if Dion Lewis has lost a step from his injury? What if BB does one of those head scratching drafts he's prone to and drafts more safeties and corners but doesn't address needs? What if we don't sign anyone of any note in FA? What if C.Jones is traded? Just too many what ifs and unknowns at this point.

I appreciate the sentiment though, and as long as we have BB & TFB at the helm we're always a potential juggernaut.

supafly said:

Lots of good points. You're preaching to the choir regarding the need to run the ball. I'd love to finally see a major move at the position. The concerns I'd have with the prospect of a bigger named FA back signed are:

1) Belichick won't place it high enough on the list of priorities, although I agree with you that he should. He may feel that there are other moves that need to be made first.

2) We'll continue to run the offense through Brady. It's clear that they spent money on Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, LaFell, and Chandler to try and give Brady weapons, and that we're going to continue to rely very heavily on the quick, timing routes, as we should. I'm worried that Belichick may have a difficult time justifying too much money spent on this position just for that reason alone.

3) Belichick will choose the value of selecting a back with a cheap salary and cap hit. With very little resources spent since the double dip of Ridley/Vereen (2011) we're already way overdue, and he'll likely be looking both towards filling out the depth chart as well as the future.

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I don't think we ever know what Belichick is really thinking at any time and it seems like every time we think we know he will defy that expectation e.g...Moss, Dillon, taking a RB in the first round, trading up in the first round...2x in one draft. Etc...etc..... So when I'm talking about what i want them to do it is based mostly on what I think as well as the signs I think are pointing to it. Belichick also tends to change things up on a consistent basis so locking him in on any particular approach doesn't tend to work over the long haul. In this case I think he is getting ready to go back to running the ball more because defense's are lighter to deal with the loaded passing attacks. Imo drafting the interior linemen who were all superior run blockers indicates that he is going to go back to a more balanced attack, otherwise I really don't understand those picks, especially the Mason pick as he is as run oriented a lineman as you will ever see and his pass protection needed a great deal of work.

As far as Brady running the offense I don't think he cares how much they run it or throw he just wants to win, and if running the ball more on early downs makes that easier to achieve he will be all for it.

As I said SUP I have no idea what Belichick will ultimately do I just think he knows this kind of imbalance and the inability to run when they want to or need to is bad for the team and he is gearing up to change that. He laid the groundwork by drafting the three young interior OL who are excellent run blockers, and he went back to carrying a fullback two years ago, so the blocking for a strong run game should be in place. He has his backs in place for passing downs and OK depth but what he is lacking is a true first down back who can get them 1,200-1,500 years on the ground and help in the passing game. Given the low money they are spending on the entire RB unit and the cap shape they are in, as well as the strength of the Free agent market at the position I think this is the time he will make his move for a really good RB. We will see?

slash83 said:

Unless the o-line improves with either talent or experience it doesn't really matter much who is running the ball. It'll be interesting what the coaching staff thinks and does with the line.

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IMHO, we should learn to separate issues.

Almost all of us agree that we need to improve the OL. All of us understand that we need much better performance than in 2015. Most of us want to replace 2-4 of our offensive linemen.

I STRONGLY DISAGREE with your idea that it doesn't matter who runs the ball. We tried that approach with Jackson, Bolden and White.

We need a thumper. Some think Blount is good enough. Some want better. Some think that Gaffney is the man.

IMHO, improvement in the OL is indeed the highest priority. For me, getting a solid RB is the second highest free agent priority.

Andrews seemed to do well at C for over half the year. I wonder if we should keep him there and try Stork at guard?

patriot1136 said:

Andrews seemed to do well at C for over half the year. I wonder if we should keep him there and try Stork at guard?

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Perhaps, you mean that the team won in spite of the relatively poor performance by Andrews at center.

We did well because Josh and Tom understand that the line was a huge problem. The offense was set up to release the ball within 1.7 seconds, ignoring the long ball. This worked as long as the targets within 10 yards were healthy (Edelman, Gronkowksi, Amendola and Lewis). Even in this case, Brady spent a lot of his time on his back.

LG - free agent
C - Stork

is much, much stronger than

LG - Stork
C - Andrews

It really isn't very close.

To be clear, I was thrilled with having Andrews available at center after Stork and Wendell were injured. Given that he was a rookie, he did OK.

mgteich said:

IMHO, we should learn to separate issues.

Almost all of us agree that we need to improve the OL. All of us understand that we need much better performance than in 2015. Most of us want to replace 2-4 of our offensive linemen.

I STRONGLY DISAGREE with your idea that it doesn't matter who runs the ball. We tried that approach with Jackson, Bolden and White.

We need a thumper. Some think Blount is good enough. Some want better. Some think that Gaffney is the man.

IMHO, improvement in the OL is indeed the highest priority. For me, getting a solid RB is the second highest free agent priority.

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I'm all for them bringing in a quality veteran guard or bringing Wendelle back but for me the RB is the key and a good one will improve the OL radically. I also think that if improving the run game is the priority then keeping Mason at LG will be critical for that to happen. Belichick doesn't like to heap praise, especially on rookies, but he called Mason the most athletic OL he has ever coached, and I think he will make a big jump in his second season.

ViperGTS said:

If I could dislike this a million times I would.
Pink hat.

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Ivan said:

Quitter

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ViperGTS said:

I brings facts not ideas genius.

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ViperGTS said:

Go get your Pats pompoms and go to the cheerleader tryouts. You obviously have nothing quantifiable to contribute to this discussion.

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Ivan said:

Pink hat quitter. You go have a good cry now. Get it all out.

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At first I thought this back and forth between you two must be a joke, and that you must be old friends, because it is so over the top. And I've appreciated Ivan's posts over the years as adding to the quality of most conversation.

Now I'm wondering; my sarcasm meter is on "warning" but I'm not sure what it is warning me about.

But I didn't know "pink hat" and looked it up, and it is indeed a label loaded with bigotry:
An overzealous, bandwagoner typically female fan of a recently successful local pro sports franchise. Characterized by the brand spanking new officially licensed pink team hat. Typically spends majority of game chatting on cell phone, waving to tv camera, asking idiotic questions & being a stupid annoying nuisance in general. Most commonly found at Fenway Park & Foxboro Stadium.

betterthanthealternative said:

At first I thought this back and forth between you two must be a joke, and that you must be old friends, because it is so over the top. And I've appreciated Ivan's posts over the years as adding to the quality of most conversation.

Now I'm wondering; my sarcasm meter is on "warning" but I'm not sure what it is warning me about.

But I didn't know "pink hat" and looked it up, and it is indeed a label loaded with bigotry:
An overzealous, bandwagoner typically female fan of a recently successful local pro sports franchise. Characterized by the brand spanking new officially licensed pink team hat. Typically spends majority of game chatting on cell phone, waving to tv camera, asking idiotic questions & being a stupid annoying nuisance in general. Most commonly found at Fenway Park & Foxboro Stadium.

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Viper started out by calling me a pink hat so I had to inform him that it is far more applicable to those who only support them when they win the championships and not those of us who support then through thick and thin. I agree that it started out as misogyny but now it is far more applicable to those who are frontrunners than it is women, especially the women who are patriot fans in this forum because I don't hear any of the whiney quitter frontrunner sh.t out of them, that is reserved for those who suffer from the delusion they know better than Belichick, and those who think, going to an AFCCG is the mark of failure, there is no better demonstration of a frontrunner than that.

betterthanthealternative said:

But I didn't know "pink hat" and looked it up, and it is indeed a label loaded with bigotry:

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And, with the above post, the stupidity in this thread has kicked into overdrive.

Ivan said:

Viper started out by calling me a pink hat so I had to inform him that it is far more applicable to those who only support them when they win the championships and not those of us who support then through thick and thin. I agree that it started out as misogyny but now it is far more applicable to those who are frontrunners than it is women, especially the women who are patriot fans in this forum because I don't hear any of the whiney quitter frontrunner sh.t out of them, that is reserved for those who suffer from the delusion they know better than Belichick, and those who think, going to an AFCCG is the mark of failure, there is no better demonstration of a frontrunner than that.

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This statement is "useful"? Wow what a sad state we are in. See you are a sycophant. You believe everything about your team. In other words, you are exactly the type of fan that Goodell and the NFL target. Someone who won't criticize or go against the grain because that's just not what true fans such as yourself do.

When I sit and watch, year after year, every single minute of every single game I expect a championship. Or at the very least to be in it. Back in the early 90s it stunk. When Robert Edwards got hurt, it stunk. Playoffs were something to get excited about. Now, when you have this crew of BB and TB plus the talent they do have, anything less is a failure. I've heard Pats players state that AFC championship rings mean next to nothing. They know it. Why is it so wrong for me to? Because you say so?

Right. You may fool some people on here, keyboard commando, but I know the difference. You are a fraud and no more of a fan than me or anyone else else here.

ViperGTS said:

This statement is "useful"? Wow what a sad state we are in. See you are a sycophant. You believe everything about your team. In other words, you are exactly the type of fan that Goodell and the NFL target. Someone who won't criticize or go against the grain because that's just not what true fans such as yourself do.

When I sit and watch, year after year, every single minute of every single game I expect a championship. Or at the very least to be in it. Back in the early 90s it stunk. When Robert Edwards got hurt, it stunk. Playoffs were something to get excited about. Now, when you have this crew of BB and TB plus the talent they do have, anything less is a failure. I've heard Pats players state that AFC championship rings mean next to nothing. They know it. Why is it so wrong for me to? Because you say so?

Right. You may fool some people on here, keyboard commando, but I know the difference. You are a fraud and no more of a fan than me or anyone else else here.

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Lmao, you continue, to bring absolutely nothing to any discussion you enter. Another day another big cry for you pink hat.

Only 4 teams have gone to 8 Super Bowls in 50 years and the Patriots have been to 6 in the last 15 and won 4, and you call them failures, what a loser Douchebag.