The 2016-2017 Offense

Snake Eyes said:

"Hope" is not a strategy

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Based on talent. Stork and Jackson were very highly rated draftees at their positions; and will become very good pros. Mason proved to be a very good Guard despite his size limitations, and lack of collegiate Pass blocking experience.

Give them some time and even more important time together, which they did NOT have the luxury in their rookie seasons. Andrew and Kline are UDFA finds, maybe not starters but average to above players nonetheless.

UDFA Waddle was new to the team and CUT by his former club due to injury. He clearly was walking wounded this season. he flashed the ability to be an above adequate swing tackle.

Rome was NOT built in a day.

AzPatsFan said:

1) We agree.

2) We ALL don't agree! The present interior Offensive line looks very good for the future.

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fair enough

Apparently, there are some who think that we need NO veteran backups in the interior of the OL.

mgteich said:

Apparently, there are some who think that we need NO veteran backups in the interior of the OL.

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Kline is entering his fourth year next year. He's now a vet by any NFL standards, for any position.

AndyJohnson said:

Based on what? Hope? Prayer?

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AzPatsFan said:

Based on talent.

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I'd amend that to say "based on probabilities." The odds are good that the young players, particularly those entering their second years, will be substantially better this year than last. And, there's the probability that a new OL coach will have a positive impact.

Those probabilities are enough for some to allocate the team's limited resources elsewhere. Others would say that some of those resources should be used on the interior OL because the probabilities aren't high enough. It is a gray area.

AzPatsFan said:

Why???

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Because with the exception of last year this offense has been easily shutdown in playoffs for years in the same way.

And, not taking anything away from that 2014 team, but in order to win Baltimore we had to comeback from 14 points twice and make use of a wonderful tricky play, we may not see that again in our lifetime. The difference from last year to all the other years? Apart from Brady playing lights out, Laffell was fundamental in both wins against Baltimore and Seattle, coincidence or not, he brings a different skill set to the table, which he didn't this year due to injuries or whatever, unfortunately he was not even a shadow of the player from last year.

AzPatsFan said:

Based on talent. Stork and Jackson were very highly rated draftees at their positions; and will become very good pros. Mason proved to be a very good Guard despite his size limitations, and lack of collegiate Pass blocking experience.

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Highly regarded 4th rounders??
On what planet was Mason a good G? He was terrible this year. "Despite his size limitations and lack of pass blocking experience" So we can make an excuse so he doesn't have to be as good as other Gs and we are OK with that?

Give them some time and even more important time together, which they did NOT have the luxury in their rookie seasons. Andrew and Kline are UDFA finds, maybe not starters but average to above players nonetheless.

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We gave them time this year, and it cost us a SB. Andrews and Kline are AVERAGE to ABOVE? Compared to who. They are lucky to be on a roster. If we cut them they will not make another teams roster.

UDFA Waddle was new to the team and CUT by his former club due to injury. He clearly was walking wounded this season. he flashed the ability to be an above adequate swing tackle.

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Flashed? Flashed what? He played about 20 plays and got hurt again.

Rome was NOT built in a day.

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Neither was Camden NJ.

Look if you want to go into next season with the same collection of scrubs on the OL that caused BB to be afraid to be on offense, and pray they magically get better, I don't know what to say to you.

Personally I would rather sign players who have proven they can play or at least draft more Gs in round 4 that haven't proved they suck at the NFL level to compete with these guys that have proven that. Seems a better plan than hoping a bad player gets good because you think 4th round draft picks are 'highly regarded' and that means anything at all.

varjao said:

Because with the exception of last year this offense has been easily shutdown in playoffs for years in the same way.

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This team, during this run, has been more successful in the playoffs than any in history with the possible exception of SF which did it under 2 different HCs, systems and QBs.

And, not taking anything away from that 2014 team, but in order to win Baltimore we had to comeback from 14 points twice and make use of a wonderful tricky play, we may not see that again in our lifetime.

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Those points don't count?

The difference from last year to all the other years? Apart from Brady playing lights out, Laffell was fundamental in both wins against Baltimore and Seattle, coincidence or not, he brings a different skill set to the table, which he didn't this year due to injuries or whatever, unfortunately he was not even a shadow of the player from last year.

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Did Brady get hit 20 times in a playoff game last year?
The other difference is we were home. We couldn't be home this year because BB was afraid of his OL the last 6 weeks of the season.

It is ALL the OL.

betterthanthealternative said:

I'd amend that to say "based on probabilities." The odds are good that the young players, particularly those entering their second years, will be substantially better this year than last. And, there's the probability that a new OL coach will have a positive impact.

Those probabilities are enough for some to allocate the team's limited resources elsewhere. Others would say that some of those resources should be used on the interior OL because the probabilities aren't high enough. It is a gray area.

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They sucked. They weren't just not very good. They sucked.
It cost us the SB.
I think it would be the most moronic thing ever to take the unit that cost us the SB and do nothing to improve it, while improving other spots because we hope the crappy players are less crappy the second time around.

AndyJohnson said:

Highly regarded 4th rounders??
On what planet was Mason a good G? He was terrible this year. "Despite his size limitations and lack of pass blocking experience" So we can make an excuse so he doesn't have to be as good as other Gs and we are OK with that?



We gave them time this year, and it cost us a SB. Andrews and Kline are AVERAGE to ABOVE? Compared to who. They are lucky to be on a roster. If we cut them they will not make another teams roster.


Flashed? Flashed what? He played about 20 plays and got hurt again.


Neither was Camden NJ.

Look if you want to go into next season with the same collection of scrubs on the OL that caused BB to be afraid to be on offense, and pray they magically get better, I don't know what to say to you.

Personally I would rather sign players who have proven they can play or at least draft more Gs in round 4 that haven't proved they suck at the NFL level to compete with these guys that have proven that. Seems a better plan than hoping a bad player gets good because you think 4th round draft picks are 'highly regarded' and that means anything at all.

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What would be your general plan for upgrading the O-line?

AzPatsFan said:

What exactly did you expect out of three rookie interior linemen? Having gained experience by starting, something seldom seen in a great line, they will be much improved next season.

The Patriots had no competent RBs by the time of the Playoffs. Period.

Jackson was done before he entered retirement and never emerged on his brief return. That needs to be improved and by experience rookie RBs can and do perform. Aside from the injured Soder, there was not a single First round player on Offense.

BB has been constructing an awesome Defense for the past few years, and rightly so, and relying on Brady to push the Offense forward enough. The injuries on Offense proved impossible to overcome for the very shallow Offense.

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I didn't expect either Jackson or Mason to start. I expected Wendell (a legitimate NFL starter) and Kline (a backup talent, but probably better than Jackson or Mason, given that Jackson and Mason were rookies) to start. But Wendell got hurt, and Mason played a ton. I also expected Stork to improve from last year, not regress.

I do expect Jackson and Mason to improve next year. The question is, how much will they improve? Will it be enough.

I'm on record as saying that a healthy Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT will do wonders for the OL, but they need to add a quality veteran interior lineman. Jackson and Mason will still get snaps, and should still improve. But I want another quality body. Also, draft a couple of OT to eventually replace Solder and Vollmer.

And as for RB.... I want Lynch on a one year deal to just hammer the crap out of people. He's a much better receiver than Blount as well, so he's not merely a one-dimensional threat. Lynch and Lewis out of the backfield, with an improved OL....I'll take that, and I bet Brady would too.

Snake Eyes said:

What would be your general plan for upgrading the O-line?

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1) Assuming Solder will recover, he is the LT.
2) Vollmer is the RT
3) Given the health issues of the 2, I would want a guy who can be a reliable backup, playing either side. I don't know enough about Waddle to know if he is the guy, but he seems like a possibility. Signing him or a FA with some starting, and not sucking experience, and drafting one late to compete with Fleming for the 4th spot (which may be ps) would be fine.
4) I'm OK with Stork and think his decline was an anomaly due to injuries and crap playing next to him.
5) Andrews is camp fodder. I would hope he doesn't make the team because we have improved the talent at the position.
6) Now the Guards
Josh Kline is a few steps below Russ Hochstein. If he is on the roster, that's not a crime, but if he is competing for and getting playing time without major injuries, we are in trouble.
Tre Jackson showed me nothing this year. He was awful, and couldn't get ahead of Kline on the depth chart. He was 3rd out of 3 bad Gs. Now this doesn't mean he can never play at a decent level, but I don't know how you could count on that.
Mason was a little better, but still a bottom 10 in the NFL starting G (If you call all 3 of ours starters, they are 30% of the bottom 10 in the NFL). Again he could improve, but expecting a guy who came into the league not knowing how to pass block (not to mention if he was capable if he knew how) and didn't figure it out in a year, to magically get it year 2 is as risky as it gets.

So, we exit the 2015 season, a few points and a Tom Brady beating away from a SB, and we did that with quality at most every position on the field, expect 3 of the worst 10 starting Gs in the NFL rotating in and out causing Brady to get pummelled. (I realize Jackson was injured in the final game, but would it have mattered at all?).
So, we need to overhaul the position, and not pray that 3 of the 10 worst starting Gs in the NFL miraculously get good because they are rookies so sometimes rookies get better.
I would go out and sign a starting caliber G that is at least an average starter. By the way if a pro-bowl caliber guy is available, get him and turn OL into a strength. I do not consider Wendell that guy. He can come back for a camp tryout if he wants, but I would not have any real plans for him. We got the best he had in 2014 and that barely was acceptable. He has missed a year of football. I don't expect him back, but he would be good depth, and certainly better than Andrews.
So, sign a starter and draft another G no later than round 4.
Take whoever shows up at camp between Mason, Jackson, the pick, Kline, Wendell and let them battle for a job.
If the hopers are right, 2 might improve enough so they both start and the average starter we signed can be the 3rd G.
I do not care what it costs. If we make this OL average or better, we stand a very good chance of getting back to the SB. We would have gone this year with any OL we have had since 2001, except this one which was markedly the worst we have had.

Geez Andy, I proposed as a plan almost exactly what you describe here and you accused me of not wanting to do anything to fix the OL. LOL.

ivanvamp said:

Geez Andy, I proposed as a plan almost exactly what you describe here and you accused me of not wanting to do anything to fix the OL. LOL.

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You will have to show me where that is because I don't see (unless I'm missing it) where I even responded to you in this thread. I also don't see your plan that was almost exactly like this.

AndyJohnson said:

You will have to show me where that is because I don't see (unless I'm missing it) where I even responded to you in this thread. I also don't see your plan that was almost exactly like this.

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Here: Why Tom Brady got killed by Denver | Page 3 | New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

You replied to my post outlining what I thought the Patriots should do. In that post, even as you replied to me, you said, "Still cant figure out how all of that crap is your justification that the OL doesn't need to be improved."

In that very post you replied to, I advocated:

- Solder at LT, Vollmer at RT - which will instantly improve both tackle spots
- Improvement from the young interior OLinemen
- Adding a quality veteran interior lineman (G)

That's virtually exactly what you suggested.

ivanvamp said:

Here: Why Tom Brady got killed by Denver | Page 3 | New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

You replied to my post outlining what I thought the Patriots should do. In that post, even as you replied to me, you said, "Still cant figure out how all of that crap is your justification that the OL doesn't need to be improved."

In that very post you replied to, I advocated:

- Solder at LT, Vollmer at RT - which will instantly improve both tackle spots
- Improvement from the young interior OLinemen
- Adding a quality veteran interior lineman (G)

That's virtually exactly what you suggested.

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This is what you said that I was responding to:

ivanvamp said:

An OL of Solder-Wendell-Stork-Connolly-Vollmer won the Patriots a Super Bowl, against one of the best defenses of all time.

A healthy OL of Solder-Wendell-Stork-Mason-Vollmer should be plenty good enough to win another Super Bowl, so long as the other parts of the game hold up their end of the bargain (i.e., the defense doesn't get lit up for 38 points or whatever).

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That is very, very far from what I said.
To summarize, you said change nothing, just throw Wendell in there.
I don't understand how you think I should take that as needing to improve the OL.

Also you pulled one line out of a long and detailed post, that most focused on disagreeing with the excuses you made for the horrific OL play.

"Add a quality veteran and hope everyone improves" isn't anywhere near what I am suggesting. It only resembles my plan by being about the OL.

There is no guarantee that the young guys at guard will improve. And assuming they will is a recipe for disaster.

Because, Andy, you said that I was saying that the OL didn't need to be improved, when in fact, I advocated:

(1) Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT (a huge improvement at both spots)
(2) Drafting two OT
(3) Adding a quality veteran interior OL (G preferably)
(4) Expecting Stork to be better - a reasonable expectation
(5) Expecting Mason to improve

That's five things I offered.

CLEARLY I think the OL needs to be improved. And what I suggested is pretty much the same thing you suggested, except you added drafting another interior lineman, and I don't think we'd need to do that.

ivanvamp said:

Because, Andy, you said that I was saying that the OL didn't need to be improved, when in fact, I advocated:

(1) Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT (a huge improvement at both spots)
(2) Drafting two OT
(3) Adding a quality veteran interior OL (G preferably)
(4) Expecting Stork to be better - a reasonable expectation
(5) Expecting Mason to improve

That's five things I offered.

CLEARLY I think the OL needs to be improved. And what I suggested is pretty much the same thing you suggested, except you added drafting another interior lineman, and I don't think we'd need to do that.

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I can only account for what you say BEFORE I respond, not after. In the post I responded to, you said that Solder-Wendell-Stork-Mason-Vollmer is good enough to win a SB. That indicates you feel no need for upgrading the unit.

If you have added to that later, wonderful. I still think your approach will not be enough. By the way, 'expecting players to improve' is not doing something. My preference is that we do not expect them to improve and if they do its a bonus.

AndyJohnson said:

I think it would be the most moronic thing ever...

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Wow!
Did you watch even a few minutes of the Iowa political process? Or the Jets draft deliberations?
Personally I've sure I've done more moronic things than this in the past week.

But topping the list would be caring this much about this topic at this point in the year. How can you be this energized by this topic and still be able to enjoy the experience that is being a Patriots fan? I bet the Pats coaching staff isn't even so stressed about it.

AndyJohnson said:

I can only account for what you say BEFORE I respond, not after. In the post I responded to, you said that Solder-Wendell-Stork-Mason-Vollmer is good enough to win a SB. That indicates you feel no need for upgrading the unit.

If you have added to that later, wonderful. I still think your approach will not be enough. By the way, 'expecting players to improve' is not doing something. My preference is that we do not expect them to improve and if they do its a bonus.

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Andy, in that VERY SAME POST - the very same one - I said these exact words:

"The players need to (1) get healthy - a huge improvement would be Solder at LT and Vollmer at RT. (2) get better, especially the young players. And (3) they need to add a better veteran interior OL. I'd also like to see them draft two OT this year."

The very same post.