The 2016-2017 Offense

betterthanthealternative said:

OTG, I admit to being a hyphen-user at times. Why do you wish me this ugly fate?

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A thousand Apologies, Brother Better!! Withdrawn!! The point was perhaps a bit overstated.

tasmlab said:

Is Devlin back?

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I'd rather have Iosefa (or a reasonable facsimile) than Devlin, but if it's Devlin who makes the Opening
Day 53 I won't complain, too much.

Off The Grid said:

A thousand Apologies, Brother Better!! Withdrawn!! The point was perhaps a bit overstated.

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Appreciated (my family, as well). I will however be more selective in their use, going forward.

robertweathers said:

If what Reiss said is true which he expects Scar to come back

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Where/when did he say that?

Fencer said:

Where/when did he say that?

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He said what I thought he wrote in his Sunday notes column but I misread it. He actually said it will be Daboll and surprised if Scar comes back.

Fencer said:

Where/when did he say that?

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He didn't he said barring a unexpected Scar return.

Yes it's a ESPN link for all those who wouldn't want to click.

Knee injury is official reason for Malcolm Butler's Pro Bowl absence

mgteich said:

As always, when I read your posts, I need to re-read my own.

1) I have signing a veteran OG, just like everyone else, Wendell or an upgrade.

2) I do indeed think that between Stork and Andrews we are fine at center. We could bring in competition, but that is a lower level need.

3) We need an upgrade to Cannon who might start next year.

4) I believe that we need an upgrade to Fleming.

5) I like carrying 4 OT's, given the injury histories, Vollmer's contract, and that we occasionally use an OT as an additional blocker.

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I agree on four tackles, and I think the top 3 will be Solder, Vollmer, Waddle. Cannon's contract makes him a no-brainer to cut if he's your fourth tackle ($3.7M cap savings), and Fleming was just really bad this year, so that probably means the Pats will be trying to find another Waddle type. Shouldn't require a major investment, since it is the fourth tackle after all.

As for guards, I think the need there is understated in your post. Signing at least one veteran guard--someone who we know can start right away--is essentially a necessity. If they re-sign Wendell and leave it at that, that won't be enough IMO. I think it would be more reasonable to sign Wendell in addition to another guard who you know can start right away. Wendell's role, in that case, would be essentially to provide a baseline in case Jackson/Mason don't pan out, who can be cut in final cutdowns if they both look good.


I agree that we're fine at center with the Stork/Andrews combo, or at least that the money that would be needed to upgrade at C is better spent elsewhere (at guard).

robertweathers said:

I really don't care where the players come from.

Needs:
-Intermediate threat opposite JE: I was perfectly content with 2014 LaFell. Get that again.
-TE#2: Needs to be and OK blocker and OK receiver. Chandler was MIA in the passing game
-Top 20 RB who can make players miss: The Pats o-line will never be the 1993 Cowboys. They need a player who can run hard, with power and make the 1st player miss.

I don't think Solder-Shaq-Stork-Jackson-Vollmer is a bad line. If what Reiss said is true which he expects Scar to come back then that'll be a very positive thing for this line and Shaq/Jackson/Stork development and game-day preparations.

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The problem with Solder-Shaq-Stork-Jackson-Vollmer, IMO, is that none of the three guys in the middle were very good this year. Stork could well get back to his 2014 level, and Shaq and Jackson should improve from their rookie seasons, but to bank on any two of those things happening is living dangerously, let alone all three. And when the health of a 39 year old QB hangs in the balance, I'd really rather we didn't live too dangerously.

Do people have specific players and contract values in mind for this free agent starting guard? There have been a lot of crappy interior linemen in that $2-4 million range, so I feel like they'd have to go over that if we're talking about sure starters.

Brandon_Cox said:

In Shaq's last two games, against KC and Denver, he was switched to RG, where he played at Georgia Tech. I thought he played pretty well in both games and the so-called experts film reviews seem to back that up. He's extremely athletic, intelligent and has tons of upside. He seems part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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Anyone who says he played well against Denver had to be watching a different game.

He most certainly was a big part of the problem. Now that may not be his fault because he really should not have been on the field much at all this year.
He certainly could become part of the solution, but he will need to improve a great deal. He could do that, but I'm hoping BB doesn't count on that and risk the 2016 playoffs on that too.

Sciz said:

Do people have specific players and contract values in mind for this free agent starting guard? There have been a lot of crappy interior linemen in that $2-4 million range, so I feel like they'd have to go over that if we're talking about sure starters.

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You pay what it takes.
To me, you are looking for a guy who won't kill you if he plays. Doesn't have to be a stud, but a guy who is not a liability. That should not cost a great deal. Then if the rookies beat him out, that's great because they have improved.

BradyFTW! said:

The problem with Solder-Shaq-Stork-Jackson-Vollmer, IMO, is that none of the three guys in the middle were very good this year. Stork could well get back to his 2014 level, and Shaq and Jackson should improve from their rookie seasons, but to bank on any two of those things happening is living dangerously, let alone all three. And when the health of a 39 year old QB hangs in the balance, I'd really rather we didn't live too dangerously.

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I hear you.

The question is Wendy, Andrews and Kline good enough as backups/starters. I think Andrews and Kline are in spurts. Not sure what Wendy's health is. When healthy he can start and do ok.

Is there a Brian Watters out there to be had or will a OG with a 1st round grade drop to the 2nd/3rd round? Doubtful but you never know.

robertweathers said:

He actually said it will be Daboll and surprised if Scar comes back.

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Thanks. That's how I read it too.

robertweathers said:

I hear you.

The question is Wendy, Andrews and Kline good enough as backups/starters. I think Andrews and Kline are in spurts. Not sure what Wendy's health is. We know- when healthy he can start and do ok.

Is there a Brian Watters out there to be had or will a OG with a 1st round grade drop to the 2nd/3rd round? Doubtful but you never know.

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NO. Andrews, IMO, will not be on a 53 man roster next year.
Kline is a good 4th, shaky 3rd G. The fact that he played more than both rookies when healthy should tell you how far away the rookies are.
We got by with Wendell as the worse guy on the OL. He hasn't played football in a year. He is not a savior, he is a guy who should be on the bubble to get cut in camp because he has position flexibility.

AndyJohnson said:

NO. Andrews, IMO, will not be on a 53 man roster next year.
Kline is a good 4th, shaky 3rd G. The fact that he played more than both rookies when healthy should tell you how far away the rookies are.
We got by with Wendell as the worse guy on the OL. He hasn't played football in a year. He is not a savior, he is a guy who should be on the bubble to get cut in camp because he has position flexibility.

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Agree with your other points but unless they pick up a Mike Compton-type I would be (somewhat) shocked if Andrews doesn't have G as a 1B position under hie belt and on the 53 in 2016.

robertweathers said:

Agree with your other points but unless they pick up a Mike Compton-type I would be (somewhat) shocked if Andrews doesn't have G as a 1B position under hie belt and on the 53 in 2016.

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I don't think Andrews belongs in the league. If we had any kind of depth along the OL he wouldn't have made the roster.
Look at it this way, who was the best OL that he beat out and we cut? Jordan Devey (I know he was traded).
Our OL this year was Solder, a solid LT, Vollmer a solid, yet not what he once was RT, Stork a solid C who played like crap, and a bunch of guys who would not have started on more than a couple of NFL teams, and others who most would have cut.
It was THAT bad.

AndyJohnson said:

I don't think Andrews belongs in the league. If we had any kind of depth along the OL he wouldn't have made the roster.
Look at it this way, who was the best OL that he beat out and we cut? Jordan Devey (I know he was traded).
Our OL this year was Solder, a solid LT, Vollmer a solid, yet not what he once was RT, Stork a solid C who played like crap, and a bunch of guys who would not have started on more than a couple of NFL teams, and others who most would have cut.
It was THAT bad.

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Yea when you put it in that perspective the line was dearth of talent.

robertweathers said:

Yea when you put it in that perspective the line was dearth of talent.

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On the bright side, it was evident from 1000 miles away that BB had an even lower opinion of the OL than me. If BB knows he has a season killing weakness on his team, I am confident he will fix it.

AndyJohnson said:

On the bright side, it was evident from 1000 miles away that BB had an even lower opinion of the OL than me. If BB knows he has a season killing weakness on his team, I am confident he will fix it.

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You have to wonder if f-ing up on game days was not the only charge BB had against Googs. Seems like talent evaluation was the other.

robertweathers said:

Yea when you put it in that perspective the line was dearth of talent.

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One huge question is what are we likely to get from Andrews/Stork/Jackson/Mason in terms of improvement. Stork will be in his third year, clearly regressed from his rookie season, and yet he was very good his rookie year. So there's talent there. Mason has tons of physical ability, but never played in a passing offense, so this year was a huge adjustment for him. Can he get to the next level? Who knows. I think it's quite possible. Jackson...not sure. Andrews was an adequate backup this year and think he can continue to be that.

The problem is that in every spot on the line this year the Patriots were playing backup caliber players.

LT - Vollmer - solid at RT, but backup level at LT (because Solder was out)
G - Kline or Jackson - backup level
C - Stork or Andrews - backup level (Stork in 2014 was starter material, but he had a backup level year)
G - Mason - backup level
RT - Cannon or Fleming - good grief, they were AWFUL

So Solder and Vollmer being healthy alone takes the tackles from LT (backup) and RT (godawful) to LT (quality) and RT (quality). That is a MASSIVE improvement from this year.

On the interior, without any additions, you're hoping the young guys improve and that Stork gets at least back to his 2014 form. I think Mason can improve and I think Stork can return to form, which means you're talking quality LT, starter C, quality RT, and then hoping the two guard positions can be improved by Mason improving and also by adding a quality veteran (which is what I think they should do).

The injuries KILLED this offensive line.