Sounding like a broken record: # i don't even know anymore

convertedpatsfan · Jan 27, 2016

English Patriot said:
I do hope that Sunday finally turned around the pats fans that say not having a go to guy on the outside isn't a problem. Now i understand Brady would have needed the time to find such a receiever if we had one but let's not forget there were actually multiple occasions where he managed to buy some precious seconds but not to throw to a freak like Julio Jones/AJ Green/Megatron, or a deep speed guy like DeSean/Odell/Allen Robinson or even a guy with sick hands like Larry...

P.S. Alshon Jeffrey is a FA this summer, just sayin, Bill.

BTW, I'm really not sure how you equate outside WR with winning in the playoffs. Consider the record of the guys you listed (record in play-offs, trips to playoffs vs. number of total seasons):

Jones: 1-2, 2 trips in 5 seasons
Green: 0-4, 4 trips in 5 seasons
Fitzgerald: 5-4, 4 trips in 12 seasons
Megatron: 0-2, 2 trips in 9 seasons
DeSean: 2-5, 5 trips in 8 seasons

Jeffery/Odell/Allen Robinson: 0 playoff trips in 8 combined seasons.

0 Super Bowls combined in 47 seasons.

Yes, I want to copy the Lions.

Yes, let's follow the Falcons.

Yes, I want to do whatever the Jaguars and Bears are doing.

Clearly BB is an idiot compared to the guys in charge of those franchises.

TomPatriot · Jan 27, 2016

FWIW, I think the Bears may tag AJ.

TomPatriot · Jan 27, 2016

pazrul72 said:
This argument is getting old. WR's are without a doubt the most over rated high expense position on the field on football. You are talking about a player who will see at most 10 balls a game. That's about 1 out of 7 plays per game and for this you want to give up 10% of the cap? I like what OTG calls them hood ornaments cuz they look pretty and sparkle and add value to the final price but they mean squat if the engine and transmission are ****. On top of which it doesn't suit the drivers skills. Tom Brady is without doubt the GOAT QB to ever play but he does not throw the long high arching passes well. That 4th down bomb to gronk non withstanding he constantly over throws them. 2007 was a fluky year where everything worked. If all it took was Brady and moss why were they not completing bombs all day long in 2009? This team and QB don't need a Julio Jones or alshon Jeffery it needs a bigger willing to block receiver that excels at the 12 yard in or the 15 yard back shoulder fade that has just enough speed to get deep on PA or a double move. 2014 lafell or 2004 David givens are perfect examples. They stretch the field horizontally and take pressure off the middle and DON'T break the bank.

I want to believe. But I saw my team lose two SBs because the Giants had WRs who made the big play.

supafly · Jan 28, 2016

TomPatriot said:
FWIW, I think the Bears may tag AJ.

Of course they're going to tag Jeffrey if they don't reach an agreement by then. All signs point to them letting Forte go, especially with Langford proving his value as a rookie last season. They'd have to be total idiots not to try and keep their biggest playmaker on the team, particularly when they'll have plenty of money to spend.

supafly · Jan 28, 2016

TomPatriot said:
I want to believe. But I saw my team lose two SBs because the Giants had WRs who made the big play.

I think you saw your team lose 2 SBs because our **** defense allowed them to march down the length of the field twice to end the season, but that's just my opinion. There was also some good fortune for the NYG in terms of bounces, calls, etc.

Let's not act as if David Tyree or the WR in the second SB loss (can't even remember who it was) are top notch, world beating WRs. We've had plenty of those types of average/good receivers who were more than capable of making that play. As a matter of fact, had Moss made more of an effort on the deep throw with less than 30 seconds left (SB42), or Welker caught the ball in the 2nd loss (SB46)--we'd be having a different discussion altogether.

I'm certainly not opposed to improving upon the WR talent and depth, but like we saw last season, a 2014 version of Brandon LaFell would've done just fine. Either way you look at it, our WRs were definitely much better than the NYG's were in both super bowl losses.

TomPatriot · Jan 28, 2016

In SB46 it was Mario Manningham who made a stupendous catch that helped the Giants win. As BB said at the time - they made more plays than us. That was one of them. He went up and got the ball. Let's not minimize that.

The Pats could use a WR who can go up and get the ball on a fade or post route. That why we are talking about Jeffries. You're right- we've got guys who can run outs and digs and you can win a SB with those guys but still . . . it would be nice to have a Jeffries, Beckham, Johnson, Bryant for once. TB would be grateful . . . if we have an OL that doesn't kill him.

DarrylS · Jan 28, 2016

This is like Deja Vu all over again, everytime we do not win a Superbowl there are those who think that player X or Player Y will cure all of our ills, usually a WR. Usually the rhetoric is, "We need someone who can take the top off the D" or 'Can stretch the field"....

But all of this is for naught if we have an O line that cannot block or are riddled with injuries.. if you were to sign Jeffries, what would be the plan for Hightower, Jones, Butler and Collins???

I do not see it unless there is a reversal in policy for the Patriots.. this team could have gone all the way if it was not rife with injuries....

convertedpatsfan · Jan 28, 2016

TomPatriot said:
In SB46 it was Mario Manningham who made a stupendous catch that helped the Giants win. As BB said at the time - they made more plays than us. That was one of them. He went up and got the ball. Let's not minimize that.

The Pats could use a WR who can go up and get the ball on a fade or post route. That why we are talking about Jeffries. You're right- we've got guys who can run outs and digs and you can win a SB with those guys but still . . . it would be nice to have a Jeffries, Beckham, Johnson, Bryant for once. TB would be grateful . . . if we have an OL that doesn't kill him.

Fine, then let's sign Mario Manningham (1 year, $975K last year) or someone similar.

This has to be the first time anyone has EVER put Mario Manningham in the same discussion as Calvin Johnson.

supafly · Jan 28, 2016

TomPatriot said:
In SB46 it was Mario Manningham who made a stupendous catch that helped the Giants win. As BB said at the time - they made more plays than us. That was one of them. He went up and got the ball. Let's not minimize that.

The Pats could use a WR who can go up and get the ball on a fade or post route. That why we are talking about Jeffries. You're right- we've got guys who can run outs and digs and you can win a SB with those guys but still . . . it would be nice to have a Jeffries, Beckham, Johnson, Bryant for once. TB would be grateful . . . if we have an OL that doesn't kill him.

Manningham--that's right. Ughh.

Belichick barely retained Randy Moss the year after Moss set records with 23 TDs and led us to within minutes of a perfect season, and that was a guy who was proven to be a great fit for our system. Moss's negotiations actually went for days, and he was forced to take a below market deal to stay. That tells me all I need to know about the prospects of paying an outsider 15+ million a season.

As you mentioned, Jeffrey will likely be retained by CHI anyway. It's a fairly well known belief, and one of the reasons why they feel comfortable letting Forte go. All of those other guys would be taking up enormous portions of our cap in a year where there isn't going to be a ton of money and lots of upcoming priorities to deal with. I wouldn't even think twice about entertaining this fantasy, but that's just my opinion. We'll have to go about the other routes such as lower costing players, draft picks, etc.

TomPatriot · Jan 28, 2016

convertedpatsfan said:
Fine, then let's sign Mario Manningham (1 year, $975K last year) or someone similar.

This has to be the first time anyone has EVER put Mario Manningham in the same discussion as Calvin Johnson.

Come on, man. I said that the Giants had guys who made plays, guys who went up for the ball, and then mentioned Manningham, who did exactly that in SB46. No one compared him to Calvin Johnson.

pheenix11 · Jan 28, 2016

Not for nothing, but we did have perhaps the greatest deep threat WR of all time in 2007 and we scored 14 points in the Super Bowl and lost. So there's that.

convertedpatsfan · Jan 28, 2016

TomPatriot said:
Come on, man. I said that the Giants had guys who made plays, guys who went up for the ball, and then mentioned Manningham, who did exactly that in SB46. No one compared him to Calvin Johnson.

We're talking about whether we need a #1 WR, whether it's worth it, and you're bringing up Manningham. It's a bit weird. Guys like Manningham and Tyree made big catches at pivotal moments in history. But I don't think anyone is suggesting we get one of those types of guys to be a #1 on our team.

And whenever this discussion comes up (and it does pretty much every single year, usually multiple times), nobody asks why we didn't win with one of the greatest #1 WRs of all time, Randy Moss. If it's so essential and obvious you need one to win, why didn't we? We won last year with a 7th-round former QB and a former 3rd-rounder his team didn't want anymore and an UDFA with injury issues.

Every year, we get this discussion, and it never ever ever makes sense. But it keeps happening.

Brady_2_Moss · Jan 28, 2016

Tom is the GOAT, but, I think his one glaring weakness, besides running speed is his vertical accuracy. A legit outside WR would pull safety coverage, but I honestly don't think defenses would be that concerned. We saw it with Moss. Tom was missing him a lot more towards the end. We've seen it recently when he's missed wide open guys that broke deep. Fix the O line. Fix the running game. Win.

Boomer B · Jan 29, 2016

For what it's worth Rodney Harrison said on the radio the other day that outside WR is a major need for the team.

In my mind, whether via FA or draft, we need to upgrade:

1) o-line
2) RB
3) outside WR

We don't need Jeffries or CJ, but we do need someone who can beat 1 on 1 deep coverage which is something Lafell wasn't able to do. The opposing D at least has to respect the potential to go deep.

supafly · Jan 29, 2016

1960Pats said:
After giving it some thought I don't see the loss of that pick being a big deal. With the money they save on a 1st round pick they can find a FA who won't be as much as a gamble.

Last year's first round pick Malcom Brown's AAV is less than 2 million dollars a year (1.903m), so it's not like we're saving tons of money to go out and bring in proven talent via FA by not having a first rounder.

I do agree with your general thought that while losing out on the first round pick sucks, it's not going to be that big of a deal in terms of setting the team back.

supafly · Jan 29, 2016

Boomer B said:
We don't need Jeffries or CJ, but we do need someone who can beat 1 on 1 deep coverage which is something Lafell wasn't able to do. The opposing D at least has to respect the potential to go deep.

I think this is a good comment. We aren't going to compete for any of the big name/expensive WRs due to multiple reasons, but we do need someone to keep the defense honest and act as a (possibly even improved) version of 2014 LaFell.

Missing that aspect of the more physical/taller, downfield WR, even at a reasonable cost, really limited our offense this year, at least in terms of them leaving points on the board and having drives stall out.

eom · Jan 29, 2016

TomPatriot said:
In SB46 it was Mario Manningham who made a stupendous catch that helped the Giants win. As BB said at the time - they made more plays than us. That was one of them. He went up and got the ball. Let's not minimize that.

The Pats could use a WR who can go up and get the ball on a fade or post route. That why we are talking about Jeffries. You're right- we've got guys who can run outs and digs and you can win a SB with those guys but still . . . it would be nice to have a Jeffries, Beckham, Johnson, Bryant for once. TB would be grateful . . . if we have an OL that doesn't kill him.

I think mario's available

eom · Jan 29, 2016

English Patriot said:
OK so i have had a few days to process the AFC title game and i want to give my take which will sound all too familiar. Now i could easily blame Bill, the o-line, the o-line coach, Gostowski etc. but i am not because instead i am going to once again blame a big chunk of that loss on what the media is finally starting to pick up on - the deep threat.

I do hope that Sunday finally turned around the pats fans that say not having a go to guy on the outside isn't a problem. Now i understand Brady would have needed the time to find such a receiever if we had one but let's not forget there were actually multiple occasions where he managed to buy some precious seconds but not to throw to a freak like Julio Jones/AJ Green/Megatron, or a deep speed guy like DeSean/Odell/Allen Robinson or even a guy with sick hands like Larry, no instead Brady had to throw the deep ball to none other than little old back up to Dion Lewis RB - James White. .

could we stop talking nonsense in these threads?
I think you have a fair point that it'd be great if we could add an outside receiver, but I constantly see these threads demanding belichick add a laundry list of the top players in football like this is some friends + family fantasy league where you can rip people off every week.

julio jones is on a $70m contract with a 16m cap hit next yr + was drafted w/the 6th pick
aj green is on a $60m deal w/a 13m cap hit + was drafted 4th
calvin is on a $113m deal w/a 24m cap hit + was drafted 2nd
fitz has a 16m cap hit next yr after signing a $113m deal in 2011 + drafted 3rd

HOW THE **** do you propose we get these guys??

ps
torrey smith just signed for $40m this past offseason, dwayne bowe would actually have an 8m cap charge next yr if he was on a roster, and ####### mike wallace is on a $60m deal w/a 12m cap hit in 2016

supafly · Jan 29, 2016

TomPatriot said:
In SB46 it was Mario Manningham who made a stupendous catch that helped the Giants win. As BB said at the time - they made more plays than us. That was one of them. He went up and got the ball. Let's not minimize that.

The Pats could use a WR who can go up and get the ball on a fade or post route. That why we are talking about Jeffries. You're right- we've got guys who can run outs and digs and you can win a SB with those guys but still . . . it would be nice to have a Jeffries, Beckham, Johnson, Bryant for once. TB would be grateful . . . if we have an OL that doesn't kill him.

Tom--I think we all understand your point, although we have different opinions on going about things.

Here is a WR free agent list from sportrac.com. Check it out and consider what kind of better value we may get from going in the usual direction. Also, I'm interested in whether or not Brandon Gibson will see a second chance here in N.England, as he was someone who looked decent during TC last summer.

2016 NFL Free Agents Tracker

eom · Jan 29, 2016

supafly said:
Tom--I think we all understand your point, although we have different opinions on going about things.

Here is a WR free agent list from sportrac.com. Check it out and consider what kind of better value we may get from going in the usual direction. Also, I'm interested in whether or not Brandon Gibson will see a second chance here in N.England, as he was someone who looked decent during TC last summer.

2016 NFL Free Agents Tracker

I think the problem w/these kind of threads is nobody here really has any idea which wr can come over here and pick up the system.
that said, there might be 2 or 3 guys on there, depending on their circumstance.
I'd imagine brian quick will hit the market, but current staff doesn't seem to have much faith in that guy.
maybe you'll see andre holmes or marvin jones available.

edit: but another problem, as I pointed out in above posts, is that even mediocre guys can get way overbid on the market

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